I've wavered on a lot of things in BtVS. I usually have to think quite a bit and read lots of different viewpoints before I take a firm stance on an interpretation.
There's one thing, though, that I haven't really wavered on too much. Oh, I've thought about it quite a bit, but my position remained basically the same after a lot of thought as it was when I was first watching.
The stance in question is regarding when Buffy fell in love with Spike. It is ambiguous in canon; Buffy holds onto her feelings till the last minute. So it is up in the air as to when, exactly, she began to love Spike. S7? S6? S5? Earlier? Never?
I have my initial opinion on that, which remains my primary position. However, I also have an alternate explanation that makes sense to me, as well, though it's not my preferred one.
1. Buffy fell in love with Spike in S7. Sometime between Showtime and Touched.
I think this is later than common opinion, but hey. Here's my reasoning:
No, I don't think Buffy loved Spike in S6. Buffy was clinically depressed. I don't think she was any state of mind to love in that fashion. She held some affection for him, yes. But love? No, I don't quite see it.
The most telling moment to me is the end of Dead Things, actually. From the original shooting script:
Tara: Do you love him?
Buffy, still sobbing, looks at Tara as if she can't even comprehend the question. It clearly has made it worse.
Tara: It's okay if you do... He's done a lot of good, and he does love you...and Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a hard time, and you're...
Buffy: Using him? What's okay about that?
Tara: It's not that simple.
Buffy: It is! It's wrong. I'm wrong...Tell me that I'm wrong...
This scene always makes me cry.
A couple things in this scene are telling to me:
1. The script direction that Buffy "can't even comprehend the question". SMG's acting is spot-on and even on the first watch, I could visibly see her confusion at the very question. Which suggests to me, again, that her mental state prevents her from even loving anyone romantically. The thought is unthinkable. She's too caught up in her own problems at the moment.
2. Tara's line that it's okay if Buffy doesn't love him, to which Buffy replies that she's "using him". Buffy replies to the option that she doesn't love Spike, which indicates that that's the one that's true. Otherwise, she wouldn't be concerned about using him, and she wouldn't feel "wrong" about it.
Buffy's concern in this scene is not about her treatment of Spike in their relationship, but about the fact that they have a relationship at all in which she is clearly using him to escape her problems. Her conflict is that using someone in that fashion, especially when she doesn't feel anything for him, is not who Buffy is. She wouldn't have done that before. She had been using Spike's explanation that she "came back wrong" as an excuse to act differently. Tara, though, tells her there's nothing wrong with her. Buffy doesn't have an excuse to fall back on. She's using Spike's love and taking advantage of him for her own pleasure, and she's completely responsible for it.
I think it's one of the most tragic parts of the Buffy/Spike relationship in S6 that Spike's love goes without reciprocation by Buffy. It's no small coincidence that Buffy breaks up with Spike shortly after this (Though I think the break-up should have happened immediately after this episode. I'm unhappy with the way this episode just isn't adequately followed up. I mean, they have Older and Far Away right after this with almost no progress shown. WTF?).
So that's the reason I don't think she loved him in S6. Why do I think S7? Well, obviously, she falls in love with him sometime before the end of the series. I'm not sure if a particular moment can be pointed to, as it was likely a gradual process for Buffy, who's especially closed off.
It is apparent to me that Spike's return at the begin of S7, naturally, unnerved her a good bit. However, once she thinks about it, we see that she starts to adjust her opinion of him in Never Leave Me. I think his subsequent capture drives home to Buffy how important he's become to her, overall.
After that episode, she becomes increasingly tender and affectionate towards him. Which is why I place the "falling in love" moment to between Showtime and Touched.
Of course, there is a bit of a bump in my thoughts here, and it centers on one line in First Date:
Buffy: Why does everybody think I'm still in love with Spike?
Ironically enough, the line in the original script is slightly different (emphasis mine):
Buffy: Why does everybody still think I'm in love with Spike?
It makes a big difference in meaning. Who knows why it changed in the actual episode? SMG flubbed her line (doubtful), last minute change for whatever reason, whatever. But we gotta take it as it happened in the episode, so the actual line we have does suggest that Buffy was formerly in love with Spike, which kinda goes against my theory.
However, it still doesn't dissuade me from it. Why? In my mind, that line indicates that Buffy, even at this point, was confused about their past relationship. She knows they were intimate, and she may be conflating it with a love that clearly wasn't there. This is in First Date where Buffy goes on a sorta-date with Principal Wood. She's obviously not very sure about her feelings for Spike at the present time, much less during that muddled, angsty period in S6.
So in this case, I think we're seeing Buffy confuse her current feelings for Spike that she's not quite sure about with how she previously felt for him. Also remember, that line is said defensively, which means I'd generally take it with a grain of salt.
So that's my main belief. However, as I said, I do have an alternate view that I think is equally supported by canon.
2. Buffy fell in love with Spike at the beginning of S6.
Yeah, you heard me. Taking this view brings out the Spuffy of S6 in a big way. With this, a lot of Buffy's treatment of Spike can be attributed to her denial of her feelings rather than her own self-loathing. She doesn't think she should love Spike, so she lashes out against him and does everything she can to convince herself that she doesn't love him.
With this, the Dead Things scene is another instance of that denial, and Buffy's pleas that she's "wrong" are because she can't believe she's treating a loved one in such a fashion.
In that way, S7 becomes the season where she struggles to accept her feelings for Spike rather than when she develops him. This better explains her comment in First Date, though it goes against my opinion of the Buffy/Spike arc in S6.
But I think I take a fairly unromantic view of Buffy/Spike in S6 compared to some (I can't even bring myself to call it "Spuffy", actually. It's Buffy/Spike).
Anyway, that's my tl;dr. Feel free to share your thoughts and opinions.
There's one thing, though, that I haven't really wavered on too much. Oh, I've thought about it quite a bit, but my position remained basically the same after a lot of thought as it was when I was first watching.
The stance in question is regarding when Buffy fell in love with Spike. It is ambiguous in canon; Buffy holds onto her feelings till the last minute. So it is up in the air as to when, exactly, she began to love Spike. S7? S6? S5? Earlier? Never?
I have my initial opinion on that, which remains my primary position. However, I also have an alternate explanation that makes sense to me, as well, though it's not my preferred one.
1. Buffy fell in love with Spike in S7. Sometime between Showtime and Touched.
I think this is later than common opinion, but hey. Here's my reasoning:
No, I don't think Buffy loved Spike in S6. Buffy was clinically depressed. I don't think she was any state of mind to love in that fashion. She held some affection for him, yes. But love? No, I don't quite see it.
The most telling moment to me is the end of Dead Things, actually. From the original shooting script:
Tara: Do you love him?
Buffy, still sobbing, looks at Tara as if she can't even comprehend the question. It clearly has made it worse.
Tara: It's okay if you do... He's done a lot of good, and he does love you...and Buffy, it's okay if you don't. You're going through a hard time, and you're...
Buffy: Using him? What's okay about that?
Tara: It's not that simple.
Buffy: It is! It's wrong. I'm wrong...Tell me that I'm wrong...
This scene always makes me cry.
A couple things in this scene are telling to me:
1. The script direction that Buffy "can't even comprehend the question". SMG's acting is spot-on and even on the first watch, I could visibly see her confusion at the very question. Which suggests to me, again, that her mental state prevents her from even loving anyone romantically. The thought is unthinkable. She's too caught up in her own problems at the moment.
2. Tara's line that it's okay if Buffy doesn't love him, to which Buffy replies that she's "using him". Buffy replies to the option that she doesn't love Spike, which indicates that that's the one that's true. Otherwise, she wouldn't be concerned about using him, and she wouldn't feel "wrong" about it.
Buffy's concern in this scene is not about her treatment of Spike in their relationship, but about the fact that they have a relationship at all in which she is clearly using him to escape her problems. Her conflict is that using someone in that fashion, especially when she doesn't feel anything for him, is not who Buffy is. She wouldn't have done that before. She had been using Spike's explanation that she "came back wrong" as an excuse to act differently. Tara, though, tells her there's nothing wrong with her. Buffy doesn't have an excuse to fall back on. She's using Spike's love and taking advantage of him for her own pleasure, and she's completely responsible for it.
I think it's one of the most tragic parts of the Buffy/Spike relationship in S6 that Spike's love goes without reciprocation by Buffy. It's no small coincidence that Buffy breaks up with Spike shortly after this (Though I think the break-up should have happened immediately after this episode. I'm unhappy with the way this episode just isn't adequately followed up. I mean, they have Older and Far Away right after this with almost no progress shown. WTF?).
So that's the reason I don't think she loved him in S6. Why do I think S7? Well, obviously, she falls in love with him sometime before the end of the series. I'm not sure if a particular moment can be pointed to, as it was likely a gradual process for Buffy, who's especially closed off.
It is apparent to me that Spike's return at the begin of S7, naturally, unnerved her a good bit. However, once she thinks about it, we see that she starts to adjust her opinion of him in Never Leave Me. I think his subsequent capture drives home to Buffy how important he's become to her, overall.
After that episode, she becomes increasingly tender and affectionate towards him. Which is why I place the "falling in love" moment to between Showtime and Touched.
Of course, there is a bit of a bump in my thoughts here, and it centers on one line in First Date:
Buffy: Why does everybody think I'm still in love with Spike?
Ironically enough, the line in the original script is slightly different (emphasis mine):
Buffy: Why does everybody still think I'm in love with Spike?
It makes a big difference in meaning. Who knows why it changed in the actual episode? SMG flubbed her line (doubtful), last minute change for whatever reason, whatever. But we gotta take it as it happened in the episode, so the actual line we have does suggest that Buffy was formerly in love with Spike, which kinda goes against my theory.
However, it still doesn't dissuade me from it. Why? In my mind, that line indicates that Buffy, even at this point, was confused about their past relationship. She knows they were intimate, and she may be conflating it with a love that clearly wasn't there. This is in First Date where Buffy goes on a sorta-date with Principal Wood. She's obviously not very sure about her feelings for Spike at the present time, much less during that muddled, angsty period in S6.
So in this case, I think we're seeing Buffy confuse her current feelings for Spike that she's not quite sure about with how she previously felt for him. Also remember, that line is said defensively, which means I'd generally take it with a grain of salt.
So that's my main belief. However, as I said, I do have an alternate view that I think is equally supported by canon.
2. Buffy fell in love with Spike at the beginning of S6.
Yeah, you heard me. Taking this view brings out the Spuffy of S6 in a big way. With this, a lot of Buffy's treatment of Spike can be attributed to her denial of her feelings rather than her own self-loathing. She doesn't think she should love Spike, so she lashes out against him and does everything she can to convince herself that she doesn't love him.
With this, the Dead Things scene is another instance of that denial, and Buffy's pleas that she's "wrong" are because she can't believe she's treating a loved one in such a fashion.
In that way, S7 becomes the season where she struggles to accept her feelings for Spike rather than when she develops him. This better explains her comment in First Date, though it goes against my opinion of the Buffy/Spike arc in S6.
But I think I take a fairly unromantic view of Buffy/Spike in S6 compared to some (I can't even bring myself to call it "Spuffy", actually. It's Buffy/Spike).
Anyway, that's my tl;dr. Feel free to share your thoughts and opinions.
- Current Mood:
crappy - Current Music:Natalie Imbruglia - Amelia

Comments
I honestly think Buffy/Spike is so ambiguously written, especially by S7, it's impossible to tell exactly when Buffy fell in love. It's too gradual and subtle (Plus, it can be viewed as Buffy not ever falling in love with Spike).
I find it funny that it's so difficult to pinpoint when Buffy fell in love with Spike. She's the protagonist of the show but she's so closed off that we're really unaware of what's going on in her head a lot of the time. Spike spends most of BtVS as a secondary character but he's incredibly open so we almost always know what he's feeling.
Word. It was something I believed intuitively for a time while I worked on figuring out my own reasoning on it.
I find it funny that it's so difficult to pinpoint when Buffy fell in love with Spike. She's the protagonist of the show but she's so closed off that we're really unaware of what's going on in her head a lot of the time. Spike spends most of BtVS as a secondary character but he's incredibly open so we almost always know what he's feeling.
True. Also, her romance with Spike is later in the series when she is significantly more closed off than in the beginning. She had no trouble being open about her feelings with Angel, for instance.
Hell, people debate about whether or not she actually loved Riley, so it's not just her romance with Spike that's fuzzy (For my part, I think she did love Riley. I just don't think she was able to express it).
As far as Tara's question goes, I'd say that Buffy doesn't actually have a clue whether she loves Spike or not.
...which fits in well with what I think. Because I think Buffy was sort of half in love with him for the entirety of season 6 (and had been since The Gift). She spent most of the season wavering between "I'm using him, and that makes me a horrible person" and "I'm falling in love with someone evil and soulless, and that makes me a horrible person" - and I'd say it was actually both.
As far as when exactly she fell in love with him...
*sigh*
- in Fool For Love she starts treating him as her boyfriend instead of Riley (relying on him, confiding in him, asking him his opinions) and continues to do so more and more
- in Intervention she starts seeing him as someone who could be fallen in love with (although she wouldn't actually fall in love with him herself - eww!)
- in The Gift (staircase scene) she starts half falling for him
- she keeps falling for him more and more over the course of season 6
- in Beneath You she actually completely and utterly falls for him - but doesn't actually want to be in love with him at all, because falling in love with souled vampires? Risky business. (plus, the whole AR thing, which she still hasn't properly dealt with)
- in Showtime she begins to realise how much she loves him (Buffy being Queen of Denial, she hadn't noticed it so much before then)
- in Touched she actually knew, accepted it, and stopped trying to run
But I can buy it.
Just a quibble, though...
- in Fool For Love she starts treating him as her boyfriend instead of Riley (relying on him, confiding in him, asking him his opinions) and continues to do so more and more
I'd actually kinda contest that part. She asked Spike about his past with Slayers in FFL, but that was out of necessity and he was a last resort after she'd *gasp* researched (Something Buffy hates to do). She lets him comfort her at the end, but she was in an especially vulnerable state. After this episode, she goes back to treating him as she had been. Heck, she doesn't seem very friendly at all with him at the beginning of Crush when he's trying to hang out with her in The Bronze.
I do think FFL is significant in terms of Spike's development and as far as showing Buffy's weakness in the face of her mother's illness. But I don't think it reflects much on Buffy's feelings towards Spike beyond "It would never be you. You're beneath me."
I guess I don't wear my Spuffy glasses while watching the show. Sorry.
Maybe it's splitting hairs, but that's how I view it.
As opposed to Intervention when she was concerned about him being kidnapped only because she feared what he would tell Glory, this time she was actually concerned with his well being.
Oooo...interesting parallel. Hadn't thought of that.
And, definitely, falling in love is a process. It's just especially difficult with Buffy because characters generally declare their love before the last possible moment and she doesn't. So it's natural to want to find the point around when Buffy started having these feelings.
And you know I disagree with you about the Intervention bit. I think that episode is when Buffy realized she could start trusting him (Which I think she did, even despite what she says in Dead Things). I don't think it was the beginning of any romantic feelings, though.
You're far more of a romantic than me, my dear. Ha!
I'm kidding, of course, but I think that Buffy has always been acutely aware of Spike's presence. Too acutely.
Re: "still" - it was a biggie when the episode aired. Mucho squeeage ensued. There are still traces online... :)
http://www.btvs-tabularasa.net/epis
But there it is.
I ship Spuffy since season 5 honestly, 'cause I always saw there was something different about him, he was not the regular vamp, I always thought he had the posibility of growing into something more and for me, Buffy was going to be the one that would help him or inspire him to be better. So you can imagine how big of deal it was S6 for me. By the first kiss in OMWF I thought that maybe there was a chance for them to fall in love during that season, but as the season continued it just didn't happened.
I don't think Buffy fell in love with Spike in S6, I think that she had too many mixed feelings. What I see... Buffy had a bad history with love right? Angel, Riley, Parker, all loved and lost. She trusted all these men and yet they all dissapointed and hurt her. Her friends, even though they've been doing stupid things since the beginning and yet still she trusted them, the events of S6 are too much and she knows she can't trust them anymore now. Again she's hurt by the people she loves. So she knows now that all the people that she loved and supposedly loved her back, have done nothing but hurt her in the end, and Spike doesn't seem to be like that. He seems to truly care for her.
But for all her history, I think Buffy's state of mind was that if even the closest people in the world, all those that loved her, in the end didn't, maybe she wasn't really worthy of love. Sum that with the fact that she was feeling a lot of resentment. So how could she believe for a second that a creature like Spike could love her then? I think that she went to him because because after all the heartache, like every human being, she wanted to be loved.
Maybe what she was thinking was "love me, make me feel loved; but don't, don't love me, if you do maybe I'm worthy and know I'm not because I'm not good, good people doesn't feel this resentment I feel" For me, there was a lot of self-esteem problems. Maybe even that was the big issue and not the 'creature of the dark' status of Spike. We see her deal a bit with this in CWDP.
At the end of the S6 she was dealing better with that and after seing Spike trying so hard to be a part of her life, she had feelings for him, strong feelings, but no, I wouldn't say love. Specially because I believe that when you truly love someone you have seen that someone for everything they are and accept every single part of it. She didn't saw Spike for all he was then, She saw bits and pieces of who he was, just like she saw just a part of herself. S6 definitely put the base for their relationship in S7, but things were still too messed up, for both of them, 'cause Spike had big issues too that season, but we're talking about Buffy here.
Now in S7 she did saw Spike, it's more than clear in "Never Leave Me", that she finally can accept and see everything he is and everything he's ever done. After the bad of the year before, what's left is good stuff when she sees that she was the reason why he tried to his best to be with her (I think the whole Angel/Angelus thing is still a big determining factor in her love life).
The "Why does everybody still think I'm in love with Spike?" I don't think holds that much meaning. People often called things love when it's really not, just because it's simpler. But at simplifing the situation and using the words, well the meaning is lost. People do that often, I see it all the time. Just call it the closest thing, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's all Buffy did by saying that.
Sorry I rambled.
Yes, I know you came up with two contradictory theories. Well, I agree with both of them!
:-)
It helps that I think that the word "love" covers a multitude of different emotions, and the one Buffy felt for Spike in S6 is different to the one she felt in S7, even if they can both be described as "love".
What? Nothing? Not even a little quibble? I didn't even make a typo you could point out?
Weird.
Yes, I know you came up with two contradictory theories. Well, I agree with both of them!
Funny how that works out, isn't it? :)
It helps that I think that the word "love" covers a multitude of different emotions, and the one Buffy felt for Spike in S6 is different to the one she felt in S7, even if they can both be described as "love".
Good point, and I'd agree with that, as well.
When I'm feeling less charitable towards Buffy, I don't think she ever fell in love with Spike at all. Was fond of him, proud of him, depended on his emotional support, sure, but not love in the sense of wanting to make him a long-term sexual/romantic partner. And the reason I think that is...
We don't fall in love with people because they're good. Buffy didn't stop loving Angel when he lost his soul, no matter how hard she tried. We may admire someone for their morals, or use their morals as a determiner of whether to act on an attraction. But if Buffy never felt a twinge for Spike that could have been falling-in-love if only she'd let it before he got a soul, then I think it's unlikely she would have felt it afterward. Soul or no soul, Spike just isn't a guy she would fall for. The chemistry just isn't there. (I tend to think that that's what Spike himself believes - Buffy just doesn't love him that way, no matter what, because he's not Angel.)
Of course, if one takes the view that a souled vampire really is a different person, then one might argue that Buffy could fall in love with the-souled-vampire-who's-calling-himself-S
Well, when I refer to theory #2 as "more romantic", I'm not exactly calling it "fairy tale mushy, soppy love story" (Though I suppose that is the natural connotation). Basically, I think theory #2 emphasizes the romance, dark and disturbing though it is, above and beyond a lot of the other factors and themes going on at the time. It focusing more on Buffy's denial of her feelings than on her self-loathing and depression, which are independent of her relationship with Spike. In other words, it turns parts of S5 and all of S6-S7 into a rather grand, twisted love story. That's just not my perception of the seasons or the events as I focus more on the non-shippy psychological factors at play.
But if Buffy never felt a twinge for Spike that could have been falling-in-love if only she'd let it before he got a soul, then I think it's unlikely she would have felt it afterward.
Interesting thought. I definitely do think Buffy felt affection for Spike prior to S7. And I think the soul was a bit of a hold-up for her, though that was purely her issue. After the events of Angel/Angelus, she convinced herself that she couldn't love a creature without a soul (because she didn't believe that a soulless vampire could love anyway). Who knows? If she didn't have that belief in place, she might have fallen in love with Spike prior to S7. However, it's in the Beneath You church scene, specifically, that Buffy realizes she was wrong about her belief there. That realization is what allows her to fall in love with Spike afterward. It doesn't have anything to do with what changes Spike may or may not have gone through, but is more connected to Buffy's own world view and the substantial change it goes through.
Course, that's just my thinking. :)
This is completely unrelated (because I pretty much completely agree with your first theory and have nothing to add), but I did see a meta once (I wish I'd saved the link) that suggested Buffy's attitude had changed in OAFA - that for the first time, she's considering the possibility of actually dating Spike. She knows she's wrong, and they can't go on like they are, so her options are either make it legit or end it. She told Tara, and Tara didn't freak out, and she can see Spike interacting with all her friends, so maybe it's okay to tell them? But ultimately, she goes for the other option (and Riley's appearance in AYW certainly helps sway her in that direction).
I have enough of a desperate need to make that sequence of episodes make sense that I may rewatch OAFA and see if I can pull out that meaning...
Since i'm in the middle of re-watching the series, I realize that I have got some blurry views on some things.. different perspectives too ..but I tend to agree to your second theory. I believe she started to fall in love with Spike during s.6 (and I even believe she started to feel something for him at the end of s.5 however it remains to be clarified ) and was in denial.
During s.7 she comes to term with the fact that he has become the friend and partner she always needed, the lover she could have again , she will have again when the Big Battle is behind them.
Should she assign herself guilt for accepting and taking advantage of love when she was unsure if she could reciprocate? Is she more or less guilty because the other party was a willing participant?
She freely admitted the make out session at the Bronze at the end of Tabula Rasa was her emotionally lashing out about Giles leaving. She knew she was using him, and so did he. He put up with it because he loved her. She kept doing it... Why? Because it continued to make her feel better? Because he didn't tell her no? Because she loved what he was providing for her? (Not orgasms, you pervs. :p I mean an emotional outlet.)
How far is the distance between loving what someone is willing to do for you and loving the person committing that act? It's really not that far, especially considering that they had a pre-established friendship. Yes, it was a sniping, bickering, heated friendship, but there was definitely solid friendship forming in season 5, whether she liked it or not.
Argh... I'm rambling again. Sorry for the stream of consciousness crap. Thinking "out loud" again...