
Poll #1840420
Open to: All, detailed results viewable to: All, participants: 133
1. Which do you think is creepier: Warren and his bot or Spike and his bot?
| Warren |
| Spike |
| They're equally creepy |
| Neither of them are creepy |
| I have another answer |
| Not sure |
2. Most entertaining bit of Buffybot programming towards Buffy's friends?
| Xander: Friend; Carpenter; Dates Anya |
| Anya: Dates Xander; Likes money; Ex-demon |
| Willow: Best friend; Gay (1999-present); Witch; Good with computers |
3. At the end, when Buffy is pretending to be the bot, she indicates that she knows who the Key is. Did Spike program the Buffybot with the knowledge that Dawn was the Key?
| Yes. |
| No. Spike was too thrashed to notice the inconsistency. |
| I have another answer |
| Not sure |
4. Unlike the Aprilbot, the Buffybot is based on a real person. Some people argue that Spike's use of the Buffybot is not unlike a person masturbating to another person's photo in concept. Do you agree?
| Yeah. It's basically the same thing. |
| No. The Buffybot is skeevier. |
| No. The Buffybot isn't as skeevy. |
| I have another answer |
| Not sure |
5. Spike provokes a storm of fan controversy. One particular debated aspect is whether Spike is capable of doing good deeds for selfless reasons. Some fans argue that his withstanding Glory's torture qualifies. Do you agree?
6. Buffy kisses Spike at the end of this episode, as a thanks for protecting Dawn. Is there a romantic element to her kiss, as well?
7. Pretend you're a movie reviewer and give this episode a star rating:
| ***** (Five stars) |
| **** (Four stars) |
| *** (Three stars) |
| ** (Two stars) |
| * (One star) |
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Comments
One thing I've been thinking about, with Spike, is that most human brains are wired to reward you for doing good deeds. If you do something kind or generous or altruistic, your brain rewards you with a dopamine rush. It feels GREAT. And...isn't that very addictive dopamine hit at least one part of the motivation for doing good deeds?
No, I am not saying it is the only motivation! Motivation is always complicated, as
Bit of Both: Motivation in the ‘Verse - motivation is never just one thing or another, it's always a bit of both.
But since we DO get that reward from our brain chemistry, I wonder if any action can ever be called completely selfless. Even if we're getting no other benefit from the action...that dopamine hit sure does feel good.
Vampire brains, presumably, do not reward vampires with a dopamine hit for doing good.
So is possible that a vampire doing good is actually MORE selfless? Because they DON'T get a dopamine hit from it?
4. Well, for starters, a photo isn't sentient...
5. What
5. *nods*
2) "Gay (1999-present)" is one of the funniest thing ever showed in Buffy. Willow, no contest. Second place for Anya and her money.
3) Spike didn't bother to program Giles' name properly, he was interested in other skills. I think that he was too thrashed to notice and I don't believe that Spike would ever put sensible informations in a sexbot, but, as far as we saw, the bot is capable of basic interaction with other people and, maybe, can preserve some informations on his own.
4) I'm sorry, I don't know what skeevy means, but generally I think that the concept of a toy human-like, with the features of a real person and the capacity to interact, is different from fantasize and masturbate using a photo.
5) Spike's decision to keep the secret is a selfless action, so he's capable of doing good things even without a soul.
6) I don't think so, even if I ship Buffy with Spike.
7) Five stars. I adore this episode, I rewatched it several times. It makes me cheerful and it contains one of my favourite cute!Willow scene ever. (When she gives her notebook to the student "Don't fold the page corners down" Gotta love Willow!)
Yeah. There's creepier and less creepy aspects to both of them. It's hard to say.
2. Hee! Yeah, that always makes me giggle.
4. "Skeevy" basically means "creepy". :)
2) Willow, obviously. The facts themselves were funny because they're about Spike's knowledge of the Scoobies and I'm quite interested in the way he described Willow as "Best friend" while Xander as "Friend," which seemed so detailed.
3) Doubt it.
4) Buffybot is so much worse and ickier.
5) Yes.
6) Yes, why would she kiss him? A simple thank you would have been enough.
2. Willow. I just can't help but chuckle at the "(1999-present)" level of detail in her blurb
3. I don't think he knowingly would have told a living soul about Dawn being the key so I don't think Warren programmed it into her, but he does tend to ramble on and he may have mentioned it offhand after the bot was delivered. Or he may not even remember if he mentioned it or not and just accepted the bot's claim to know the knowledge at face value.
4. I think it's pretty close, but also skeevier because he built a living replica of Buffy's body and used it and there's something about that that makes me shudder.
5. I don't know what selfish motive could be attributed to his action. He didn't do it to make Buffy love him. He was convinced there, for a while, that he wasn't even going to survive so Buffy was never going to find out that he didn't tell.
6. I think there has always been an attraction between the two of them so there was a slightly romantic aspect of the kiss. But it was well sublimated inside Buffy's head.
7. ***** for many reasons.
4. Yeah. Honestly, I get stuck, myself, on this question. In concept, it's fairly close. In real life, it'd be like someone making a Real Doll of some unrequited love and using it for sex. But...wow, that still seems skeevier to me. Maybe it's the level of effort involved? I dunno.
5. Indeed. He was also convinced that there was no way to Buffy anymore - thanks to Giles' threat to him in IWMTLY. The bot was kinda a consolation to him. He had no reason to think anyone would care.
2. Anya, although that's more because of Anya's delighted "Thank you for asking!" when the Buffybot mentions her money.
3. No. I cannot believe Spike would be so dumb as to program a robot with information Buffy wants to remain secret.
2. Hee!
3. Agreed. Spike can be...not the brightest sometimes, but that would be above and beyond.
3. This always bothers me. I can't imagine Spike programming it in, or even revealing that information to the Buffy bot, so I like the idea that it was an inconsistency that he didn't notice. Good idea.
5. Definitely selfless. He was willing to die, there is no reward.
6. Romantic. No reason for a kiss if there wasn't some romantic feeling in her.
7. Five. Love this episode, as creepy as some of it is, the Buffybot is adorable, Spike is heroic and I find the whole ending very moving.
3. Thanks! Always happy to help Spike. :)
7. Yes!
1)This was actually a tough question because there's aspects of each that make them super creepy, and aspects that make them less creepy. I went with Spike, because his bot is based on a real person who he claims to (does) love, while Warren's is just some collection of fantasy features for a woman. However--Spike's "real" bot also lends a bit of a sympathetic quality, because he's in love with her and desperate for any contact with her. The sheer patheticness of the act of creating the bot makes it a little less creepy. And then there's the fact that Warren programmed his bot to feel pain when she disobeys him, whereas Spike programmed Buffybot to be spunky and independent.
2) Anya
3) I think mostly he was too thrashed to notice the inconsistency--but also I wonder if he and Buffybot talked about it.
4) Skeevier
5) Yes
6) Yes, in fact, I'd say that it's mostly romantic. She's not really thanking him--or I guess she is. But she's overwhelmed by the gesture he made for her. And, let's look at the facts: Xander and Giles have taken many a beating for Buffy, she's never kissed them like that. That was a "I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm filled with a sudden softness and compassion and a need to put my face on your face" kiss.
7) Five muther-effing stars! I'd give it a million stars if I could!
7. ALL THE STARS.
1. Warren's definitely. Spike's lack of a soul here sort of mitigates him here...that and on a completely shallow level. Buffy-bot = way more enjoyable than April. Also...as far as we know Buffy-bot doesn't feel pain when she ignores Spike.
2. I went with Willow. But my real choice is Giles (pronounced "Guy-els"). Also...I know he doesn't count as one of Buffy's friends at this point but the "Angel is lame. His hair grows straight up and he's bloody stupid" also gets an honorable mention. Because...um...truth.
3. No, he was too out of it to notice. I honestly can't see Spike giving the "Dawn is the Key" tidbit away willy-nilly like that to Warren (especially when one considers what he endures to keep it a secret from Glory).
4. Buffy-bot is totally skeevier. To me it's something of a midpoint between April-bot and sex-slave!Katrina.
5. I agree. It's a selfless act. Though, I can see where one could argue to the contrary. He was motivated to keep quiet because loved Buffy and didn't want to see her hurt/Dawn get (presumably at this point - since don't exactly know what Glory wants to do with the Key at this point) killed. The love was there, so he did it. He didn't go through just because it might raise him up a few notches in Buffy's book. When it's Buffy kissing him and not the Buffy-bot he is genuinely surprised. I can tell that he honestly did not expect such a favorable reaction to Buffy. Like Buffy said...what he did for her and Dawn was real. It's wasn't about getting in Buffy's good graces.
6. I said "No, there wasn't a romantic element" only because I don't think Spike registers in Buffy's mind on a romantic level yet. He definitely goes up leaps and bounds in her mind after this...but the romantic feelings aren't quite there yet.
7. Five stars (though...I sort of accidentally picked 4 ::flogs self::). Such a fun yet important episode. So many great moments and quips in this. I could go on quoting this episode for days...
(Wow...we're already into the final 4 of Season 5 next week?! Didn't we just start the S5 polls last month...because that's what it feels like...)
5. Word.
6. Agreed (though I can see how people disagree).
(I know! What the hell???)
1. Warren. I'm not sure I have a rationale, though, except that I like Spike and Warren turns out to be such a monster.
2. Anya, although it's a close toss-up with Willow. I just love how genuinely happy/touched Anya is about the BuffyBot asking about her money.
3. Spike was too thrashed. He's not that stupid to program the Key's identity into the BuffyBot.
4. BuffyBot's way skeevier.
5. Yes, definitely. Considering how he ruined everything in "Crush," I don't think Spike has reason to think he could do anything to get back into Buffy's good graces, and I definitely don't think that's on his mind when he's being tortured. It's a very selfless act; and the beginning of S6 definitely proves he can be selfless because he takes care of Dawn and helps the Scoobies with no expectation of ever getting into Buffy's pants.
6. I said 'yes,' but I think the more correct answer is I'm really not sure. It is a romantic gesture and a very romantic image, from the audience viewpoint, but I don't know if Buffy feels anything romantic when she does it.
7. FIVE STARS.
1. Also, Spike's hotter. *nods decisively*
5. Yep, agreed.
3. I think Spike probably did program the Bot to know that Dawn was the Key, just in case at any point the Bot needed to know that Dawn should be protected. But in this case, he certainly also programmed her to know that that information should also be protected at all costs, so that there'd be no chance of the Bot revealing that Dawn was the Key to anyone, ever, even if it meant the destruction of the Bot itself. So - still a bit of an inconsistency there for him to be too thrashed to notice. :P
Edited at 2012-05-15 03:25 pm (UTC)
I don't believe that selflessness really exists. Even if one does not expect a reward from someone else, a person can still derive personal satisfaction in knowing that he/she did something good. Or perhaps the so-called act of selflessness is really about protecting another that person cares about. Which would account for Spike's refusal to tell Glory that Dawn was the Key. I wonder if Buffy ever considered that Spike really cared for Dawn.
Edited at 2012-05-15 03:40 pm (UTC)
4. I think porny fanfic is no different. Just easier to deny.
5. Spike made a point of saying that it was his own sensitive feelings he was trying to spare. Plus I'm guessing his torture account is still way overdrawn... I adored it as a romantic gesture. But I'm not ready to say it's selfless.
5. I think that's kinda splitting hairs, to be honest. Spike said that Buffy being in pain was something he couldn't deal with. He's displaying empathy. I...think a lot of humans would feel the same way, and, indeed, that empathy is what drives a lot of selfless acts.
5. I'm still on the fence as to whether or not he was capable of selflessness, but I don't think he was being selfless there. He knew Buffy would never forgive him if he sold them out, and he wanted to stick it to Glory. I think caring about Dawn was part of it for sure, but that's not entirely selfless.
Plus, Spike does state the reason why he didn't betray them to Glory: It would hurt Buffy too much and he couldn't live with that. It's an empathetic reason, which goes hand in hand with selfless acts.
2. Willow, not quite sure why but I think I just like the Buffybot randomly saying "you're recently gay!"
3. No. He's just too beat up and confused that the bot is back at all to remember. Or maybe he thinks that the bot found out from Buffy/her friends.
4. Sorry Spike, the Buffybot is way skeevier.
5. Yep (in so far as anyone can do a selfless good deed).
6. I think it's very interesting that the kiss is placed in this episode. Looking at it from Buffy's point-of-view she starts off the episode worrying that she isn't able to love or at least able to show love to people - worrying that being the Slayer has made her hard and cold. Then she ends it with giving Spike a very sweet kiss almost as if she's saying (as she did more obviously with Giles earlier) I care about you and I'm making an effort to show you that. (Perhaps she's also proving to herself that she hasn't become closed-off). And coming off of what we know is to come with Buffy expressing her feelings for Spike in actions rather than words then it seems hard not to view the kiss as a romantic gesture. Now I'm not saying that she's in love with him at this point or anything but as others have said above if she's just grateful and saying thank you the kiss isn't necessary at all - if she kissed Giles or Xander (or Willow or Anya!) like that to say thank you I think things would get pretty awkward. And that's without even considering the fact that she knows Spike has feelings for her.
7. 5 stars!
Look at it this way. Putting up a few pictures of someone you are interested in and creating a full on Helga Pataki stalker shrine complete with a statue of the object of your affection made from their used chewing gum are the same thing conceptually. They're both just a way of using mementos of your romantic interest in order to feel closer to them. Now, which is creepier?
2. Willow's, LOL. Especially the "Gay (1999-present)" - both a bit of skeptical commentary from Spike, maybe, and a nod from the show about the debate over gay/bisexual that some fans engage in. Whatever, though, it just worked.
3. Spike was too beat up to notice the slip. I just can't imagine he'd ever tell Warren something so impactive to someone he loves just to "get the details right". So I'll go with a slip he didn't notice, along with it probably being a slip from the writers.
4. I wish I could say I agree. But I don't. Wanting something like what he had Warren build is beyond tempting, especially when the real thing has disinvited you and acts as though she loathes you. But it's a violation of Buffy. That's not okay. No matter his reasons. The only thing that makes me feel better is that I think Spike was slowly beginning to realize that (the thousand yard stare during the suggested BJ). Or at the very least that the 'bot was not what he really wanted.
5. He withstood torture from a hellgod, in fact provoking her to further violence with his taunts, to keep Dawn safe, for Buffy's sake (and for Dawn's too, I like to think) because he knew it would cause her pain. That's the epitome of sacrifice for selfless reasons. I have never seen it any other way.
6. I voted yes. Because Buffy's been grateful before without kissing the receipient of her gratitude. Like Xander. But with Spike, I think her surprised gratefulness with what he did for her caused her to lower her walls for just a tiny bit, and do something she wouldn't have done otherwise. Plus, that wasn't a quick peck. She very deliberately lowered her head and very deliberately pressed her lips against his for a few seconds. And she didn't look disgusted to do it. That's a step up in the Spuffy relationship at this point. *thumbs up*
7. Four stars. This episode was funny and sad and poignant and it propelled the narrative forward while changing the dynamics of Spuffy and how Buffy saw Spike. Specifically, she found out that she could trust him to protect Dawn with his life. *cries a little*
4. Yeah, I think Spike grows a bit disenchanted with the bot throughout the episode.
5. Word.
7. Plus, Spike with bed head!
It might be that I'm just a lot more sympathetic to Spike. And I don't think there's anybody in the Buffyverse I have less sympathy for than Warren.
2. Willow. Though it does make me wonder why he bothered to programme this stuff in at all. Was he anticipating the possibilty that they'd run into each other and he'd have to pass her off as Buffy?
3. I don't think he'd want the Bot knowing about Dawn, given how dangerous that could be. So I'm leaning towards the idea that he didn't notice the inconsistency.
4. I think it's skeevier. But still an interesting analogy.
5. Yes, I think it was selfless. There was no way he could benefit.
6. I'd say there's a romantic element, even if Buffy doesn't consciously acknowledge it herself yet.
7. I nearly gave it 5, but I prefer to be stingy with my stars, and this season has Fool For Love, The Body and The Gift. So, in the end, 4. But a very high 4.
7. Agreed. I did the same. :)
In Warren's ideal world, every woman is "April".
In Spike's ideal world, there is no robot but Buffy loves him.
Warren builds his ideal woman, who his subservient and dependent. Spike builds a poor substitute to the real person - and he knows it. (Tangent: If Spike had gone and magicked real!Buffy into the role of the bot - then we would have something comparable to "April".)
4. I think the Buffybot is seriously funny - it takes the concept of obsession and makes it very graphic. And we, as people of the fandom persuasion know a thing or two about obsession, right? ;-)
It is not unlike fans obsess over stars, collect merchandise, frame photos
and write porn fic.So, the whole thing pokes fun at me... ;-)
5. I think sacrificing himself for "his lady/muse" is part of Spike's romantic concept of identity. He is willing to die in this situation because it helps him to construct his own identity - to loose that would be akin to "dying", loosing oneself. So, whether he dies because he breaks his own perception of his identity or dies because the hellgod kills him - the end result is the same (to Spike) and the latter allows him to keep up his own self-constructed identity. Anyways: "Spike", the constructed persona, wouldn't survive breaking his own code (see: insanity in season 7 after loosing his identity in "Seeing Red").
Is this selfless? Is this selfish? I don't know - it is what it is, and if he had died taking Dawn's identity to whatever hell dimension he would have ended up in, it would have been a sacrifice for others (Buffy and Dawn, in this case) and certainly been perceived as selfless.
6. I don't think there is a romantic element per se. Buffy isn't dumb - she knows what Spike wants, and what he did for her is so grand (it's "real") that she wants to repay him in kind: She wants to give him something "real", too, something he will cherish: Herself (well, only a tiny teeny peck on the lips - but it is the idea that counts, right? ;-)). Insofar i think Buffy knows that this is more than a simple "thank you", that it is a romantic gesture. So, true gratitude plus the wish to give Spike something "real" (and maybe even an incentive to do more "real things" in the future by being "real" to/with him, too) leads to this. I don't think Buffy is in Spike's-so-hot-fantasy-land in this very serious situation. She's not subconsciously acting on her romantic feelings. She wants to give Spike something that's "real" to him. I don't know if i'm able to express myself well: I do not think Buffy is calculating. She has a big heart. And she feels for him (for the first time). He's not only a "murderer in prison" anymore, he just became real to her because he did something real (and Spike recognizes this: "...but you treat me like a man"). And Buffy's all about the loud action vs. the hollow words.
6. Yeah. I think the kiss was far more about Buffy giving Spike what she knows he'd want rather than anything else. I agree very much with this.
1. Warren, definitely. He programmes her to adore him then dumps her without another thought. It's pretty obvious (and not, I think, just in hindsight) that his attitude to April is symptomatic of his misogyny in general. He's creepy too.
Spike is creepy, of course, especially when he orders her, and the subroutines are funny but definitely eeuw material. But he has no soul and is desperate for contact with Buffy, so I tend to cut him a break. And he's Spike. And his scenes with the 'bot are hilarious and moving in equal measure.
2. Torn between Anya and Willow. I went for Anya because of the way the 'bot handles the social niceties with her, but it's a close shave.
3. No way would Spike have told Warren, so it couldn't have been in her base programming, and I find it hard to believe he would have mentioned it during sex games. He was in such a dreadful state by the time Buffy visited him that he wouldn't have noticed anything odd.
4. I suppose it is, though Spike seems just as interested in preserving the fantasy as in the sex - he wants her to be Buffy, not just a sex toy.
5. I can't see what Spike could hope to gain by withstanding Glory - he must have expected to be dusted at some point during this. I believe the reason he gave to Buffy when he thought she was the 'bot - and that is selfless by my standards - he can't bear for her to be hurt. That's why he deserves the kiss.
6. Yes, at least a touch of romance. She didn't have to kiss him, and she knows how desperate he is for her, so she is giving him just that crumb he wanted.
7. Five stars. Not quite in my top five but definitely in my top dozen episodes.
lol! It is awesome like that. :)
5. Word!
1) They're equally creepy - Warren for the way he treats the bot, and for not having the 'I'm a vampire' justification for his creeptastic and jerktastic behaviour, and Spike for having his sexbot made as a replica of a real person.
2) I like them all. Today, it's the Anya part, cause she gets so adorably pleased when the bot asks her about her money. (Btw, how does Spike know Anya likes money? It's not like they spent any time together between Anya getting the job at the shop and Spike ordering the bot. Maybe Dawn told him?)
3) You know, I've never given this any thought, but now that you mention it, I'm still not sure. :D The Bot refers to Dawn only as her sister by Season Six, but we don't know whether that's the result of Willow's reprogramming or part of her original Dawn recognition...
4) I know that, rationally considered, it should be the same, but I don't really do rational. So: it's much skeevier, probably because the bot is such a good replica of the original. If it were just a regular blow-up-doll with a blonde wig and whatnot, it probably wouldn't be as squicky as it is. This way, it's extremely disturbing.
5) I don't know. It depends on whether you count not wanting to see Buffy hurt as selflessly or selfishly motivated. The line between 'selfish' and 'selfless' is pretty blurred when it comes to love. Was Spike sparing his own heart by saving Dawn and therefore Buffy? He doesn't seem to care about Dawn herself, he says doesn't want her hurt because that would hurt Buffy; and that would, by proxy, hurt him. I think it's all kinda convoluted. So, I think I put 'Not sure'.
6) I don't think she herself sees it as romantically motivated. But still - if you don't want to encourage someone who's in love / obsessed with you, you don't show them gratitude by kissing them on the lips. Especially if you've never kissed anyone who wasn't a romantic interest in such a way. I think this is where the audience are invited to interpret it the way they want, and the show can therefore have it both ways.
7) Five stars. I love this episode. It's just so funny, and the bot is adorable. Especially when someone compliments her and she gives them a huge, if witless, smile.
ETA: Hang on...was going through the comments, and it appears the Aprilbot had bonuses? And I forgot about the "hurts to be away from him" thing so...I change my mind to Warren.
2. Anya, or maybe Willow.
3. Spike was too thrashed to notice the inconsistency. There's no way Spike would mention Dawn's keyness.
4. I agree in that...it is essentially masturbating to a real person's image. Additionally, and this somewhat relates back to number one, is that there are certain dolls and/or female parts that are made after real people for the soul purpose of masturbation. But of course, those people are aware that that is going to be the use...But be it the Buffybot, a picture or drawing of Buffy or fantasizing someone else as Buffy, the result at that point in time for Spike was the same.
5. Of course it qualifies. Spike wasn't expecting to be saved by Buffy or anyone. He had no intention of telling Glory where or who the key was to keep Dawn safe and to spare Buffy grief.
6. No--I think the kiss was a thank you, and maybe to show she really isn't repulsed by him all the time. Love can't be bought, but it can be earned. So that being said, she definitely saw Spike in a different light in that moment--you can see it on her face. Kind of like, when the Grinch's heart grew, the way Buffy saw Spike was altered that day. Um, ramble ramble, maybe a bit of romantic element. But tiny, like a grain of rice. At any rate, her perception of him totally changes, which will be discussed later in "The Weight of the World," where she has Spike run away with her, and defends his presence to her friends. Yep.
Edited at 2012-05-15 08:29 pm (UTC)
5. Yep.
6. I tend to agree. :)
At any rate, her perception of him totally changes, which will be discussed later in "The Weight of the World," where she has Spike run away with her, and defends his presence to her friends. Yep.
It's Spiral actually! *just did the first draft of the Spiral poll*
4. It is akin to masturbation to a picture but that is sort of like saying stepping on a bug is like stomping a mouse--one is exponentially bigger and exponentially more--so if you are squicked by someone masturbating to a pic of a girl which he took without permission, you'll be more squicked by this.
5. this brings up teh controversy of what is selfless? he doesn't tell because it would hurt buffy and that would a) make her hurt and b) ruin his (already slim) chances with her. But that doesn't mean it's a selfish act not to tell Glory who the key is.