2. He can do good. Whether that's the same as being good is a matter of definition. Personally, I tend to think that chaining people up and giving them an ultimatum to fall in love or die falls slightly to the left of "saintly." Which isn't to say it's not a great episode, but Spike still has a lot of journey ahead.

4. What, like love can't be a selfish emotion?

7. 4+, but I should probably have put a 5. Brilliant episode, really. "Do you like the Ramones?" Too bad it's Dru's last non-flashback appearance. I miss her. :(

And no question on the poor vamps who run off the second they see Spike and Buffy?

Edited at 2012-04-17 02:58 pm (UTC)

1- I ADORED Spike's casual look. Yes, yes!

2- It's difficult to understand the nature of goodness. Of course, Spike can do good things even without a soul, but what is good and what is really important: his intentions (For example: trying to seduce Buffy) or his attitude? In this case with have a direct comparison with Angel, so here we talk about the nature of goodness according to Angel. Spike can ever accept to be a martyr even without a soul?
Well, in the end I went for: he can be good, but not just because of the chip.

3- I went for another answer. For Buffy all that matters is that Spike tried to kill her, so she was really pissed, but at the same time she can perfectly sleep at night, even with the confirmation that Spike's evil. Dru and Harmony are both vampires and it's also not clear: 1) If Harmony *really* care about anyone; 2) How Dru deals with emotions and feelings, due to her crazyness. I think that she suffers deeply, but in a way she seems pretty disconnected (And she already knew about Spike's feelings towards the slayer)

4- Again: nature of love. I think that vampires can feel selfish love. If we talk about selfless, unconditional love, I think it's necessary a soul.

5- Not sure. Spike's unpredictable.

6- I think that Spike would allow a biting or even torture. Killing the object of his obsession? Not sure.

1. Not that I don't love the classic Spike look, but it's always a treat to see him in something different, or nothing at all.
2.He CAN be, if he could figure it out, but he certainly isn't proving it in this episode!
3. I picked Buffy. Drusilla should expect to be betrayed, she is the queen of betrayal herself. He didn't really attack Harmony until she tried to shoot him with the crossbow.
4. Of course they can. But it's rare.
5. Nah.
6. Nah.
7. I enjoy any episode with lots of Spike, but man is he an ass in this one! But that scene in the Bronze with Spike and Dru slinking around together, is gorgeous. I wish it went on longer.

1. Spike in beige? A thousand times no!

2. He can do good and he can want to be good; I'm not sure he can always understand what "good" actually means without that moral compass. Tara spells it out for us: it can't end like that, 'cause all of Quasimodo's actions were selfishly motivated. He had no moral compass, no understanding of right. Everything he did, he did out of love for a woman who would never be able to love him back. Also, you can tell it's not gonna have a happy ending when the main guy's all bumpy. I'm not sure I agree with her that doing something good for unreciprocated love makes it intrinsically selfish, but she feels so.

3. Hmm. Two vampires - betrayal is pretty much part of their life isn't it? Dru has sex with Angelus in front of William, and has sent him away from her when he called her out on the Chaos Demon. Harmony is clueless, but it's hardly the first time he has double-crossed her - she knows he doesn't love her. (syphilis!) Buffy is probably angriest, partly because she now realises she should have seen it coming, but also because he renders her helpless, which is the ultimate betrayal of a Slayer. So, possibly Buffy by a narrow margin. Spike really doesn't "get" women, does he?

4. Nope - even Dru points out that she's wrong.

5. I think he would have dusted Dru for Buffy, but possibly never have forgiven himself afterwards.

6. No - he is obsessed by Buffy and wouldn't actively help kill her. Possibly he would have unleashed Dru then stepped in just as she was about to sink her fangs into Buffy, dusting her in a flamboyant gesture. And then be outraged and astonished that Buffy didn't fall into his arms for saving her.

7. I adore this episode - there are so many funny bits, but we are reminded that Spike is still a vampire and dangerous, and the dark is very dark.

You didn't mention his hesitation about feeding off the victim in the Bronze.

By the rules of the Buffyverse (contradictory and fluctuating as they are) Spike can't be good without a soul. On the other hand, he can and does do good.

YAY!!!! It's Tuesday...another poll!!! <3

1. I picked it as a definite improvement. It's totally shallow...but it bugs me immensely when a character wears the same clothes again and again. I can't help but think "OMG...ew...did he shower? Why is he still in those same clothes" So seeing him in a new outfit was a huge relief to me. He can still wear his trademark leather jacket...but...please...rotate the clothes under it a little more.

2. I picked "he can be good, like Angel, and not because of the chip" but I suppose "I have another answer" is also fitting. We saw Spike with the chip...he was still trying to be bad regardless (points to "Who are you" and "Where the Wild Things are") however it was his love of Buffy that was the impetus for his more conscious effort to be good. It took Angel guilt being shoved down his throat and several decades to make the decision to try and be a force for good. Whereas, regardless of the reason, Spike made a conscious effort to not hurt/scare/whatever people without a soul in about a year. That earns him serious points in my book. Bottom line: Soul-less!Spike is a better person than souled!Angel. It takes forced feelings of guilt and a well groomed hero complex to get Angel to act on the side of good...whereas it takes Spike considerably less. Even when souled...it takes Angel massive encouragement to keep up the fight (the Shanshu), whereas Spike, souled or unsouled, does it anyway.

I didn't quite mean for that to turn into the Angel bash that it did...but...those are my thoughts on the matter. ::nods::

3. Harmony. Spike treated Harmony like absolute garbage. Dru expects as much from Spike, heck in the past treatment like this was probably foreplay. Buffy also has low standards with Spike (whom she, at this point, mostly views as a soul-less thing). However, Harmony actually expected a modicum of respect from Spike...which she never got. She was never anything but a placeholder for Spike.

4. While he hasn't necessarily proven to Buffy by this episode..."Intervention" definitely proves it to her. Also, as viewers, we can see that soul-less!Spike did in deed love Drusilla. Which Drusilla herself confirms in this episode.

5. Yes. He was absolutely desperate to prove his love for Buffy at this point. I feel like wanted to kill Drusilla for his sake and Buffy's sake in this episode. He wanted to prove to Buffy and himself that, even soulless, he was capable of cutting all tie to his soulless ways (symbolized most obviously by Drusilla) to prove his goodness.

6. No. Definitely not. He is far too into Buffy at this point to ever willingly let anything bad happen to her.

7. 5 Stars. If only because it is Drusilla's last non-flashback appearance in the Buffyverse. Also because of the gratuitous Spike. <3

(I realize that my responses may have taken a turn for the ramble at some point. If so...I apologize...I got sort of excited about talking about this episode)

I have a strong opinion on the "can be good" argument - 'good' and 'evil' aren't rugby teams that you join or leave - they're abstract concepts which are always relative. Good to whom, evil to whom - there is no true good or evil - only our conception of what is good or evil at a given point in time.

So... given that caveat, what Spike is really saying is "I can conform to the societal norms that Angel conforms to." And that is a definitely "yes" - all it requires is Spike taking the effort to learn those norms and the willpower to conform to them - and despite his inability to stick to a plan if it bores him, Spike strikes me as a dude with insane willpower when he puts his mind to it.

1. Chose another answer. Classic Spike was limited to the same pair of faded, beat up jeans and shirts :P That was the wardrobe department's fault, though. I liked his earlier look in s6, with the various button downs (particularly the blue), and the dark denims of s7, and the crisp and new blacks of Ats 5.

2. Yes, he could be good, but not because of the chip. We see this later that season and the following season.

3. I think I chose not sure. Was Harmony the actual girlfriend? I remember she sought sanctuary at Spike's, and he said yes on the condition of her sleeping with him (to which she had no problem with). At any rate, still pretty bogus. I feel like Dru doesn't have much elbow room to complain at being chained up (and not even tightly, I might add) since she only came to him after her failed plans with Darla and Angel.

4. Buffy heard from Darla herself in s1 that you can love without a soul, and she accused her of just being jealous. She uses Dru as a shield in s2 to use Spike's love of her against him. She's blatantly lying here, or refusing to accept truth IMO.

5. No. It was all for show ("We like to talk big, vampires..."). He wouldn't have had the yelling fest if he'd meant it.

6. Nope. It would have been a sticky situation, to be sure and awkward...but I don't think he would have done it to either of them.

1. Spike's casual look is hot. That's all I have to say.

2. It really all depends on what you mean by good. It's obvious that Spike can fight for the good guys without a soul, but he isn't capable of expressing remorse for his past evils.

3. Drusilla! To betray her like that after loving her for all those years...

4. Today I say, "no way, of course vampires can love without souls". Tomorrow, I might say something different.

5. I don't know. It's a mystery.

6. He helped protect Buffy from Dru, so I don't think so.

7. I really hate rating things with stars, but let's say "four". It's a fun episode.

Not one of my favourites. It makes me uncomfortable, because I don't like to watch humiliation, and I feel like Spike's being totally humiliated (mostly due to his own actions, but still).

1) No way. Not only just because new clothes make Spike look totally ridiculous, but because I hate that look on anyone. Seriously, khakis? Anything brown? So incredibly boring, and preppy, and eugh. Such an Edward Cullen thing to wear.

2) Another answer. He can Do good. He can't BE good. (Ignoring the whole 'you are your actions' angle, cause the Buffyverse doesn't really acknowledge that.)

3) Harmony. God, I hate Spike for how he treats her, and I love her for finally coming to her senses and leaving his abusive ass. And for trying to stake him (back).

4) You can love, but not very selflessly, and a lot more obsessively. It's like black-and-white love. You need soul for the colours.

5) Not sure. He might have killed her and then regretted it, though I tend to think 'No'.

6) Hell no. He has no pride, he would've just begged her to love him some more.

7) Like I said, not a fan. Decent episode, but not one for me. Mostly I just love Buffy's reactions, and watch Spike's behaviour in horror. Three stars.

1. I have a different answer. Spike's look? It's just a different costume. My headcannon says that a change of costume is always his first step to reinventing himself. Create the look, and then create the role that fits it.

2. Spike proclaims to Buffy that he can be good, like Angel. What say you?

Hmm... Another one where I have different answer. I suspect there aren't many ways that Spike wouldn't claim to be just as good as Angel. And, yeah, Spike can do good things without a soul, but they don't really seem to resonate with him much.

3. Drusilla. They've all got pretty good reasons to be upset, but offering to kill Dru just to impress Buffy is gross.

4. I have a different answer. Dru, Harmony, and Spike are all capable of love, but that they might not be very good for the objects of their affection. And I really can't blame Buffy for rejecting a love that has Spike tying her up and threatening her. If that weren't enough, the same conversation has him showing her that

5. I said yes, that Spike would have killed Dru. He might be sorry about it afterwards, but I think he could follow through before he had a chance to think it through.


6. I have another answer.

I'm not even sure Spike knew if he would let Dru kill Buffy. Same rules apply as with killing Drusilla to impress Buffy. He was pretty worked up, and could act without thinking and then be sorry later.


7. 5 stars. I love this episode. Too much fun.

#2 -- Spike can be good. The Spike story arc argues powerfully for good as a choice. The soul in the Buffyverse is basically treated as a mystical conscience, and we know that there are humans walking around right now in the real world who lack such a thing. If they choose to do good, are they less moral than regular people -- who do good in part because their conscience punishes them emotionally for doing bad? Or are they more moral because their motives are more pure?

I don't have an answer here, I just think it's an interesting question. See "Dexter" for more on the topic...

#3 -- Harmony, because Spike really has treated her abominably from Season 4 onward. (For not being Buffy, is my reading on it.)

#4 -- When Buffy says you can't love without a soul, she is trying to convince herself of that. She already knows it isn't true.

#5 -- I don't think Spike would have killed Drusilla in cold blood, but he would have killed her to save Buffy. This is what Drusilla picks up on, right before she tells him he's lost. His instinct is entirely to save Buffy.

#6 -- He might have untied her with the intent of letting her kill Buffy, but wouldn't have gone through with it -- see #5 above. Also, I can't figure out if the emotional blackmail is just Spike being honestly a jerk (still, technically, evil, you know) or if it's Spike self-consciously doing what the bad boy would do.

#7 -- Four stars for Drusilla! This would be a five star episode if not for that horrible, horrible scene where Buffy and her mother and Willow talk about the crush and everybody's fretting and stupid and victim-blaming and acting like Buffy is twelve years old or something. HER MOTHER ACTUALLY SAYS, "Did you lead him on in some way?" GAH!

Love, love, love this episode. It has some wonderful ambiguities, and slyly undermines what's been canon up to this point.

1. As long as he has the leather duster, it's all good.

2. Spike is basically crazy in this episode (evidence: that he would compare himself unfavorably to Angel for what has to be the first and last time ever), but he's sane enough to know that Buffy can't love him the way he is. Angel is the only template he understands for a guy Buffy likes, since he basically thinks she was fooling herself with Riley. But of course, Spike can't be like Angel; he has to find his own way to be a better man. The fact that he even wants to is the key.

3. Logically it should probably be Harmony, but the ability to hold grudges isn't among her many flaws. Same for Drusilla. So I'd go with Buffy.

4. It's interesting how adamantly Buffy believes it. And why shouldn't she, when both Angel and the Watchers' Council have gone out of their way to stress the idea that soulless creatures are irredeemably hateful? I'm not sure the show ever fully answers this question; it's left up to the viewer to decide. I'd say that Spike gives us some pretty strong evidence later on that he really does love Buffy, even if he is still capable of hurting her. Like b_g_f said above, love is often selfish.

5 & 6. These really get to the heart of the episode. We see Spike feed on someone after Drusilla kills her, so naturally the question arises: what else is he willing to do? Again, it's part of "Crush"'s deliberate ambiguity. I guess my inclination is to say that he wouldn't have killed either of them, but the question is more important than the answer. We don't understand Spike because he doesn't understand himself. All he thinks about is who he wants to be; he's gone from a creature that lives fully in the present, to one who aspires to something more. He could never go back to Dru, but he knows he can't be with Buffy. Even his big impassioned speech to her is a plea for a "maybe, sometime"! How messed up is that?

7. Five all the way! I'm surprised this episode doesn't show up on more "best of" lists, although I admit it does drag a little in the beginning. Their date is so hilarious though. And Spike's shrine to Buffy reminds me of another of my favorite shows:

1-No way. I prefer Spike chosen attire. This seemed like an attempt to blend in/be what she'd want which seemed very wrong.

2-Spike says this thinking that Buffy will take his desire to be like Angel as a positive which makes the statement worthless. While he can do good deeds without the guilt that Angel's soul brings, his intentions at this point aren't completely on the up and up. He still sees the acts as a means to an end instead of the right thing to do regardless of what he might attain as a result.

3-I hate to say this, but Dawn or Joyce might have the largest grievance. Spike was all friendly with them just to be close to Buffy, and both might think that they have a connection/relationship with him separate from Buffy.

4-Love takes a heart not a soul. It might be more accurate to say that it is difficult to love unconditionally without a soul. Though, that too might be not quite right.

5-I'd like to think that Spike wouldn't be so willing to stake her, but he seemed very emotionally on edge at that moment so he might have. But he would have completely regretted it after the fact.

6-Untying, yes; doing nothing afterwards, no. His untying her might have happened, but I don't think that he would have stood idly by while Drusilla killed Buffy.

7-4 stars.

So I read a couple of time about 'selfish' love and I gotta disagree. Spike loves absolutely selflessly. He loved Dru even after the whole deal with Angelus, he tried to make it work, he went back to her again and again even after she cheated and he took care of her for years while she was crazy AND sick so no, Spike doesn't need a soul to feel selfless love. Glory torture and fights on high towers and summers spent babysitting just prove my point further. Actually after seeing that Spike stuck around AFTER Buffy died I just don't get how anyone can say that Spike is selfish and I think he doesn't get nearly enough credit for that summer from anyone!

I think all of this pretty much proves that he can be good too since the moments on the show when someone does something selfless are close to none and almost all of them are Spike's. Buffy and Angel for all their 'selflessness' aren't quite in the running. Buffy does it all out of duty. Sure, she cares and shé takes it like the hero she is but if she wasn't called she would have never been more than a previously-shallow currently-ok gal. She is the freaking Slayer she HAS to do those things. Every Slayer does them(Faith being an exception for a while). Angel spent years and years moping around and then suddenly after seeing a teenager sucking on a lollipop he decides he wants to join the good fight? Ooooook. Angel does it mostly to pacify his soul and to satisfy desire I want to remain ignorant about 'cause ew. Spike doesn't have to do any of it. It's not his destiny, he doesn't have a soul and he is always being rejected by the girl. Yet, he does it. Yeah, he does it for her, for love. I still think it's the best reason of them all.

3. Whoops. I kind of misread the question and voted for who I thought SHOULD have the largest grievance with Spike (i.e. Drusilla). But now I see the error of my ways…

6. LOL no way. Buffy in fact declines to give him a crumb, and Spike proceeds to have an epic fit in lieu of said Drusilla-staking. So.

#1 He's really hot in the casual clothes! I wish the Writers weren't so categorical with his wardrobe.
#2 I think he's misunderstanding what goodness means, and thinks that he can "mimic" being good--that's what he thinks that Angel does, just an act--and he still has a lot to learn.
#4 Well, he's the unliving proof that a Vampire can fall in love, plus there are many strong feelings between the Aurelians in general.
#5 In his understanding, Drusilla was totally heartless for dumping him without killing him, so yes, I think that as a last act of regard he could have killed her--I have doubts that he would have done it in front of Buffy: it seems like it should be a private moment.
#8: much love for Dawn! How could you neglect her so!

This is a fantastic episode, and a great part of its charm is the presence of all three "girlfriends" together. It doesn't get much better than that.

Edited at 2012-04-18 05:21 pm (UTC)

3. The girl who he ate at the Bronze after Dru snapped her neck is the person in the episode with the biggest grievance against Spike.

... uh, of the three? Normally I'd say Harmony, but he didn't actually try to or threaten to kill her. I think Dru gets the edge over Buffy since she got zapped in addition to threatened with death.

Hate the clothes.

The loving without a soul, it's complicated, yeah? It definitely depends on your definition of love (and isn't it great that we actually do have several- erotic love, familial love, selfless love, etc.) It's clear that Spike has erotic love (which I think includes his desire and obsession), but whether he has selfless love as well is the question. He desires all of Buffy, and not simply sexually, but I would still consider pin this under the erotic label.

I'm prone to say that the soul provides the empathy required to have truly selfless love. I doubt many would disagree that Spike without a soul does not have selfless love for anyone unconnected to Buffy, the object of his affection. After he gets the soul (and cares about his former victims) it is clear that he does. He can do good under his erotic motivation, but if being good includes compassion and love to people beyond Buffy and her loves, I don't think he has it. Now, because Buffy happens to be the kind of person who loves the whole world, as part of learning to love what she loves Spike does extend his sphere of compassionate ACTS, but I wouldn't say that extends to his feelings or motivations. We can see this is Crush when he drinks from the dead girl.

My problem comes when he chooses to get the soul. The very fact that he chose to get it is a sign of his active redemption, as many have pointed out before me. Does that also mean that this choice included selfless love? Erotic love is not any less love than the others, one could argue, but erotic love without the selfless is a selfish love, one that puts the object of affection above everyone, including the one who desires (and thence can appear to be unselfish). I would say that his erotic love led him to his choice for redemption, because seeing through Buffy's eyes changed him, but that it was untempered by love of others, and so could be twisted in the end (as we saw in SR).

Wow, that got rambly! Yay for Crush! I have felt like Buffy so many times, finding out a creepy guy liked me.