1. It's always more complicated. Buffy's relationship with Angel was the love of a very young girl, and the age disparity alone would have doomed it - even the apparent age disparity (Angel mid-twenties when they met, Buffy sixteen.) Add the pesky curse - and how in hell could it have been Buffy's fault? As for Riley, they were both looking for what was not there - a "normal" relationship with someone non-super-powered who fit their ideas of what was appropriate. Both were quite damaged by the point where he left, and one or the other caving in would not have been enough to rescue the relationship. Riley was desperate to find the adrenaline highs he'd had in the Initiative, while Buffy just had so many worries on her mind that a boyfriend's needs were not so high on her list. Both at fault, but Riley more so than Buffy.

2. It's extreme, but Buffy was in a pretty extreme place.

3. Anya is slowly learning better people skills but still has a way to go, especially by CA standards. She might be fine as a grumpy shopkeeper in London, for example...

4. I actually do feel he deserves credit for self-restraint - all that delicious blood available without even needing to lure and attack a victim. By his own standards he's almost heroic in helping staunch wounds, not make them. OTOH, he's bonkers to imagine Buffy would appreciate it!

5 & 6. Both Willow and Anya are jealous and afraid, for reasonably valid reasons. Willow had a long-standing crush on Xander, after all, and she is afraid their close friendship will be compromised, while Anya is extremely insecure - a thousand years of watching relationships collapse can do that to a girl - and she's jealous of the easy intimacy between Willow and Xander. I love the way they have to confront these feelings and work them out in this episode. And I love Olaf, of course.

7. Four stars. Not quite in my top ten, but funny, with some really interesting psychological exploration in there.

What, no questions on OLAF? Personally I like to think that Olaf's big whiny "Just like you always did when we were dating!" is as much a parody of everyone's "Let's blame Buffy for poor Riley's shortcomings" as SMG's over-the-top blubbering. (Which I love for that exact reason.) There's an eye-rolling "God, we're really trying to sell THIS aesop to them?" feel to it.

5,6: My other answer is that both Willow and Anya love Xander, he means a lot to them both, and vice versa; which means they're both in a position to hurt each other that doesn't necessarily require demonic powers or lips. (Well, not for kissing, at least.) Anya doesn't need to be a demon to break Xander's heart, Willow doesn't need to sleep with Xander to have influence over him. Scratch the surface and it's a pretty standard Lover vs Best Friend scenario.

7: A 4. Not a great comedy episode, but it has OLAF, it has Hannigan and Caulfield on top form riffing off each other, so many fantastic lines... plus, the best shot of SMG's stunt double in the entire series. Good for her, she deserves some screentime.

HAHAHAHA! PUNY RECEPTACLE!

5,6. I like BGF's answer on this -- but, bottom line, they both have a big point. In particular, Anya does try to kill Xander in Entropy, and I do think that there is still a part of Xander that Willow can touch but Anya can't (not, like a body part): c.f. their intimate moment in The Body in the middle of the Scooby scene (the forehead kiss).

[I do think Anya is sincere in her "I'll never hurt Xander," but I think there is just a little bit of "I'll never hurt Xander, because he's better than those other men" implied in her thinking. The problem of course is that Xander, while basically decent, is not that essentially different from those other men, and until Anya gets to Selfless she is still in a position of being willing/able to return to vengeance when she is re-disillusioned about men. It's at Selfless where "men can be vicious assholes; but I guess it's still best not to have a spider rip their hearts out" is made explicit.]

Edited at 2012-03-27 02:08 pm (UTC)

Yay Polll!

1. Absolutely neither of those are Buffy's fault. Actually when you think about it, other than Spike, Buffy is always the dumped party in her relationships, through no fault of her own in my opinion.

2. There is some excellent comedy in this episode, but Buffy's crying brings it down for me. I hated that Riley had so much power to hurt her there. It was good riddance to him for me by then!

5. 6. Willow and Anya are both right to be worried about each other. Anya could obviously turn dangerous with her history, it's almost inevitable.

And Willow has a part of Xander that Anya may never touch. You know, emotionally.

1) I know I'm that weird spuffy who loves Riley, but I don't think he's totally to blame. People grow and change and what they need from a relationship changes. I think it was time for both of them to move on. And there's two side to every relationship.I blame Riley more, but they're both at least a little at fault.

2) I think Buffy was both 1) genuinely upset at Riley leaving and 2) upset at the ending of her relationship and all that signified. They're related ideas, but not exactly the same. And it's hard to be the single one in a group of friends with significant others.

3) I think Anya deserves a chance, and a lot of Willow's issues with Anya in charge have more to do with Willow than with Anya. Team Anya here!

5 & 6) Willow and Anya are both threatened by the other, and reasonably. They met in the first place because Xander cheated on his girlfriend with Willow. And Anya has a history!

You totally miss having a poll question about how awesome Willow's hair looks in this episode. One of her best hair moments IMO!

1- I went for Buffy had some responsability. With Angel she totally didn't, but with Riley, even if he was a major douche, she was the other half of a adult relationship, so she can handle her part of responsability, even if it's very small.

2- Triangle is perfect for that moment. Do you imagine Buffy sad for Riley and then sad - really sad- for her mother and then sad for Dawn and then ... Let's give this girl (and the audience) some peace, please!

3- Anya deserves a chance.

4- I want for "other answer". I believe that it's important to realize that Spike can do some self-restraint, while so many demons without a soul, starting with Angel, find it very difficult. But, on the other hand, Buffy is the slayer. What she supposed to do, give him a medal?

5- No, because Anya doesn't have any power at the moment. Willow is just being over-protective and jelous, without a good reason. But I understand her: she loves Xander like a brother. When I see my brother with a girl, I can become over-protective and bitchy too!

6- I think that Anya isn't very aware of distinction in relationship. She's afraid, she knows how Willow is important for Xander and she doesn't think "Willow is totally over", because she really doesn't know. She don't understand the way people behave, especially Willow. So, in a objective way: she isn't resonable, in a Anya's way she has a good reason to be afraid.

I personally love this episode! Because it has my two favorite non-canon ships: Xander/Spike and Willow/Anya!!! Love me some snark and hate.

Also, in this episode Spike admitted that Xander's blood is yummier than onion rings!!!! Let this fangirl squeal!!!!!!

On a serious note, I tend to see a lot of Willow-hate regarding this episode. I think both Anya and Willow were rude to each other. Willow seemed innocent when she suggested she'd help Anya and didn't mean anything bad by it IMO, on the other hand Willow shouldn't have stolen things from the Magic Box without paying --- so I think both of them had a point and lost a point in this episode.

I said that both Willow and Anya are justified in their concerns over the others relationship with Xander. Not because I believe that Anya would exact vengeance on him, or that Willow would actually steal him away, but because I can see how each character could reasonably believe that of the other.

1. Buffy always has some responsibility in how her relationships play out because to say otherwise denies her agency and she's not without her flaws, but the spectacular way in which Xander and Anya place ~all~ the blame on Buffy's shoulders is so beyond messed up and it makes me RAGE.

2. I think it's over-the-top but in a way that makes sense. Like Buffy's trying to make herself cry so she's as upset by Riley being gone as she was by Angel being gone. When really I think she's more upset by the pattern repeating and what that means for her. I think she does miss Riley, but it's not the same as what she went through with Angel (which is maybe good?) and it's almost like she feels the need to make a performance of overwhelming grief.

3. Totally unjustified. Anya's the most business savvy of them all and her bottom line is getting the sale done -- if anything her not being overly nice, but logical is just another way of strategic sales(wo)manship. Of everyone in the group, Anya's the most qualified to run the shop. The others might be there to help, but she should been left in charge, no question.

4. Spike gets credit for not feeding on disaster victims the way a dog gets credit for not attacking an injured animal when you're taking your dog out for a walk on a leash. The fact that he doesn't jerk the leash like crazy might earn him a "good boy" but that's only if Spike wants to be considered on a dog level. So.

5. I think it's justified to have that cross Willow's mind, but I think Willow acting like it's a fait accompli and letting it color all her interactions with Anya isn't helpful. Benefit of the doubt and all that. I think Anya's more likely to live up to expectations in this regard, considering her Selfless revelations, and so expecting her to do evil is almost like suggesting that's what she should be doing if she wants to truly be herself.

6. Yeah, I think Anya's sensing that Willow's trying to undermine her relationship, which is true, but she mischaracterizes it as a sexual threat -- because well it's always about sex with Anya. Willow's jealous, but not in a HE'S MINE way.

7. 4 stars for the scene at the Bronze alone. Where does one find babies? Whaddya think, the hospital?

regarding 5 and 6, I think that Any'a past is a convenient scapegoat for the fear of her hurting Xander and certainly aggravates the concern, but I think it's really "this is my friend don't hurt him" is the root of that. and then Anya did get called to Sunnydale because of Willow and Xander, but Willow a) is in a committed relationship and b) is self-identifying as being only attracted to women now, so I think Anya is being irrational. Which makes sense because hi, big emotions, hard to be rational!

I have a bit of a problem with this episode, because while it is funny, it gets too much of its humor from having all the characters act (inexplicably) like five-year-olds. And there are so many moments I just hate.

#1 -- I hate Anya's smug Buffy-blame, and the fact that Xander doesn't even bother to point out that "making it work" with Angel is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE because of mystical cursedness. Hate it. Anya is bitchy and Xander is a disloyal friend.

#2 -- I hate Buffy's crying -- just hate it. Absurd and not in character. It's so goofy that it actually trivializes her trauma over the breakup. (Which you could interpret as, "she's secretly kinda relieved it's over and is manufacturing the angst to cover that up," but I hate the crying, so I'm not willing to give it any credit.) This is Buffy! Slayer-powered! She's angsty, but she only breaks down like that when it's really justified!

#3 -- I picked "another answer" because I think their concerns are justified, but Giles also needs to give her a chance. From Giles' perspective, the worst that can happen is that she might be a little rude to some of the customers and have a till that doesn't balance perfectly, which certainly seems like a risk worth taking.

#4 -- I picked "another answer" because I (the viewer) give him a little credit for that, but don't think any of the characters need to. He's never actually tried to kill me, I can afford to be forgiving...

#5 -- Oddly, Willow's fears are entirely justified -- she does hurt Xander a lot -- but Xander totally brings it on himself. Of course, she knows Xander well enough to suspect that he's going to be a jerk at some point. So, you could read it as: I'm worried Xander will screw up, and that you will punish him entirely out of scale with regard to the screw-up. Which she actually does try to do, even though she fails. Willow wins!

#6 -- I have another answer, because I think that Willow is fully invested in her mature sexual identity as a lesbian, and there is no way she's going to date Xander at this point. But Anya is right in another respect -- Xander doesn't love her more than he loves Willow, and in a true loyalty contest between them (not an insane troll contest) Willow might win.

#7 -- I would have given it 2.5 stars if that were an option. It balances almost perfectly between how much I love the parts I love ("Insane troll logic" is one of the most all-time quotable Buffy lines, appropriate in so many circumstances) and how much I hate the parts I hate.

1. Buffy definitely wasn't responsible for the Angel break-up, since she basically said she wanted to try and work things out and Angel completely shot her down. With Riley I think I would normally say she somewhat to blame for not realizing that he was having issues with their relationship before Spike dragged her out of bed in the middle of the night and shoved said issues in her face. But since Buffy was also dealing with a mom in the hospital and a recently acquired little sister/mystical artifact and Riley was doing his level-best to hide all his problems from her, I tend to give her a pass.

2. I think the crying is funny, as long as you don't think about it. If you do think about it, though, it becomes pretty blatantly out of character. Buffy doesn't do maudlin over the top crying, she stuffs her feeling down really deep and mopes.

3.I guess I'm confused as to where this concern is coming from. If Giles trust her to run the cash register and therefore interact with every costumer who buys something, why is he suddenly worried about her people skills?

4. Yes, definitely. It's fresh human blood, which Spike hasn't had in forever, just there for the taking and he abstains. Someone should acknowledge this. Posting reinforcement, people!

5&6. Neither of them are being reasonable. Anya is human at this point and in love with Xander besides; it's a completely different situation from her Vengeance Demon days. Willow is in a committed a
and loving relationship, not to mention she's Gay Now, so obviously would have no romantic interest in Xander. That said, when's the last time anyone accused emotions of being reasonable? The important thing is that their feelings are understandable, which is really the best you can hope for when it comes to emotions. The problem here is not what they're feeling, but how they've chosen to deal with it.

1. I think someone having two break-ups before their twentieth birthday is a little young to start concluding that there is something wrong with them.

4. Regardless of what moral standards Spike is being held to, I don't think it's the Scoobies' job to oo and ah over him or reward him when he does something right, like a little child or a trained puppy.

5. Completely reasonable. Why is no one else bringing this up?

Edited at 2012-03-27 09:33 pm (UTC)

This is all so complicated!

2. I get what they were trying to do with the over-the-top crying, but I felt that SMG's performance of it didn't sit with me. I think Alyson or Emma could probably play with that line between the melo!drama/absurd a little better. So... it didn't work for me... but I don't begrudge them trying. It probably worked for someone and I'm totally cool with them trying.

3.Anya suffers from a complete inability to prove herself trustworthy. Poor thing. *pats head*

4. Yes and no. He's a vampire - so from his perspective, he SHOULD get all the cookies for not snacking if he can (for serious - the man has to eat, right? And I doubt pig's-blood is delicious. From a human perspective, it doesn't make sense to applaud him not being evil. However! (I rebuttal my rebuttal) Spike is greatly influenced by positive reinforcement - so, it is in his best (personal-development) interest to be given cookies on this occasion. Telling him that he is a monster when he's trying to show that he's doing THE RIGHT, is really counter-productive to his story. It makes sense all the ways...

5. All of the above? If there isn't trust between Willow and Anya, then it makes sense that Willow would be afraid for Xander... and a Vengeance Demon history would be a really hard thing to come to terms with if they're dating your PERSON.

6. Yes. Not out of feminine-wiles, but because Willow is ALL THE IMPORTANT. It would be the same of a bride being afraid of a close bond between her fiance and his sister's VERY CLOSE relationship. I think it's really interesting that while Anya's fear is the X/W connection - he projects on her a fear of X/B connection. Both are just as logical: we've all seen Xand sacrifice for these two women, what romantic partner wouldn't fear being on the chopping block?


I'm in a weird mood or something - but these two just seem to be trying to protect their lives/identities and see each other as a threat. It's neither reasonable nor unreasonable. It just is. I think the real issue (that isn't addressed) is that these two women are so defined by their relationship to Xander, they feel the other is a threat. It's perfectly legitimate. It's also incredibly sad...

Buffy's comedic crying said to me that her relationship with Riley at the end of the day really wasn't all that serious. It's not a sentiment I disagree with.

Yes, Giles had a right to be worried, and yes, Spike's moral standards are different. He licks his own blood in OoMM, so this is a huge leap for him.

Willow's fears about Anya were reasonable; Anya wasn't born a vengeance demon, after all, and has everything she had during her duration as one except for the power to grant wishes.

Though I think it would have made more sense for Willow to be bi and not gay, she was emphatically a lesbian in canon, so Anya had nothing to worry about. Then again, she was there for the Xander/Cordy breakup and the reason behind it, so...

1) Totally not Buffy's fault. I get why Buffy herself would feel that way, but others have neither the right nor the evidence to think so.

2) Doesn't work for me. She's not a girl who cries in public, especially not in such an ott way.

3) Give her a chance. Actually, I'd love it if more shop assistants were like Anya. I don't want to have people following me around and asking if they can help me every five minutes, or offering their opinion even when I say that no, thanks, I don't need help. Just today I had a woman try to sell me a pair of shoes that were two sizes larger than what I wear, on account of them being the smallest pair they had. Anya would just say 'Hey! Those are too big for your freakishly small feet!' and that would be it.

4) Another answer. They shouldn't give him credit, not because he's trying to get in with humans, but because the whole thing shouldn't be mentioned one way or another.

5) Willow is clearly in the wrong. Not just there, but in the whole episode. It pisses me off that Xander removes himself from the situation, instead of taking Anya's side. Nothing to do with supporting his girlfriend, and everything to do with supporting the person who is in the right.

6) Another answer. No, cause they've been there, done that, and realised that they're not attracted to each other that was any more. They would never get together again even if Willow wasn't gay.

7) Three stars. I like the troll. I don't like that he says that he and Anya used to 'date' because there was no such thing as 'dating' a 1000 years ago. I've always thought they were married.

I don't think Willow would steal Xander away in a romantic sense at this point, but both she and Buffy just don't like Anya and think she's not good enough for Xander. So I could totally see Willow doing nudgy little things to remind Xander of that fact, and secretly hoping they'd break up.

1. No, Buffy did her best with both relationships but with Angel, she was working with a handicap and with Riley, she couldn't control his insecurities. And that is such an unfair statement for Anya to make. It wasn't Buffy's fault it didn't work with Angel, the circumstances of their failed relationship were set in motion long before she was born, and she didn't let Riley go...he flew off in a helicopter. Everytime I think about it, it just makes me so confuzzled at exactly what the writers were trying to say there. *huffs*

2. I actually liked the over-the-top, comedical crying. I thought at the time that the writers were doing it as a counter-point to her very serious broken heart over Angel. Like, getting over this guy will be done with tears and laughter, kinda.

3. Anya is an 1121 year old demon who's seen more of the world than the group and Angel and Spike combined. The show likes to pretend for comedic purposes that she's clueless but I think Anya can be very adaptable, especially when motivated. And nothing motivates her better than money.

4. First choice. He's a vampire. I think it's significant that he's not really trying to, and I see it as very tiny baby steps in his own journey. Even if he's probably thinking about feeding on them...or possibly just licking his fingers. :)

5. Yes, it's fair to be afraid of that, given Anya's history. And Xander's, for that matter.

6. I'm kind of torn on this one. Yes, Willow's gay now, but she and Xander have fluked before. And she's never actually emphatically said she's for sure gay, it was just kind of assumed. Until she said it. And that seemed reassure Anya. So...yes and no?

7. Three stars. It's decidedly skeevy, yes, but I kind of liked that Spike was trying to cop a good feel from Buffy during the troll rampaging at The Bronze. But only because he was also trying to help quell said troll. Sort of.

3-At the time I thought that she deserved the chance, but I can also understand why Giles wouldn't feel comfortable leaving her with complete control. Also, I'm not sure how much better it would have gone as she acted like she was in charge for much of this episode's unnerving behavior.

5-While she wouldn't want to hurt Xander, Willow is reasonable in wondering what it would take for Anya for become vengeful towards him. Though, saying that she's worried about her becoming a vengeance demon again is also unreasonable.

6-Yes, her concerns are reasonable, but not because they have tons of history but because of the past involving Cordelia and why she and Xander broke up.

7-Amazing episode, and liked the glimpse into Anya' history.

1. Buffy had some responsibility, but things were a lot more complicated than that – Obviously Buffy has some responsibility but I always find Xander and Anya so ridiculous in this scene. She’s only 20 years old and has had just two serious boyfriends. What the frak are they going on about when they say the “relationship debris is piling up on the Buffy highway?” She’s had two breakups and still has her whole life ahead of her (hopefully) but the way they talk you’d never know it. Honestly, if you were unfamiliar with the characters and tuned into this scene most people would think they’re discussing someone who was at least middle-aged with dozens of doomed romances under their belt. They both just sound so silly and it frustrates me.

2. Yeah. It doesn't work for me -- It does feel pretty OOC for me. I just think it was a very OTT way to deal with the breakup and whilst I think that works well for some characters, such as with Spike in Lovers Walk, I don’t think it suits Buffy or her story at all.

3. Yeah. Anya can handle the money well, but, as Giles says, "dealing with people requires a certain...finesse" which Anya doesn't have -- I feel he was pretty justified to be concerned. A lot of customers would mistake Anya for just being plain rude and this is Giles’ livelihood we’re talking about.

4. I have another answer -- Buffy was right, he was being “disgusting.” It’s quite clear that the only reason he wasn’t feasting on the victims was to try and impress Buffy and not because he’d really changed at all. If he really had changed then he’d never be so sick to try and get credit for it. Real change is when he withstands Glory’s torture for Buffy and Dawn and never plans to score any points by letting her know. This was just gross.

5. Yes. Anya did get her "thousand years of hurting men" gold watch, after all. -- Not only are Willow’s fears proven to be pretty correct given Anya’s behaviour in Entropy, but Willow experienced firsthand how cold and ruthless Anya can be in Dopplegangland. Anya never expressed any remorse for that nor apologised for it so I always thought Willow’s uneasiness with her was pretty understandable.

6. No. Willow's gay now. -- Not only is Willow not sexually/romantically interested in Xander anymore, but she’s never made any attempt whatsoever to try and persuade Xander to dump Anya. I get Anya being jealous of their long history together but I don’t think she reaches many logical conclusions about it.

7. Three stars – It’s an OK episode. I’m not that crazy about Olaf and I find Buffy’s characterisation pretty iffy, but there’s some wonderful Willow/Anya moments. I think one of the funniest BtVS moments ever is when Willow impersonates Anya – “I like money better than people. People can so rarely be exchanged for goods and/or services!” *g*

This is a 4 stars episode for me. Re #5: Anyanka turned Olaf into a troll, that's how she got the gig as a vengeance demon, so she's plenty dangerous. Also, Anya is sort of Willow down the road, should she accept D'Hoffryn's offer. Beneath the surface they are very much alike these two. Like with rules; they both like them a lot more than most people, but they also have no problem disregarding them when it's convenient. So I don't think it's Xander that's the issue here. It's just Willow and Anya.

2. HATE Buffy's crying. HATE IT.

3. I picked "another answer" because it really depends which Anya we're talking about. :-P In her current characterization, yeah, she needs quite a bit of practice dealing with people. But, um, 1,000 years of getting total strangers to confide in her? She really ought to be great with people.

5. At this point, I'd be tempted to say Willow's being unreasonable... but then again, there's "Entropy," in which the first thing Anya does after being left at the altar is become a vengeance demon again and try to hurt Xander. So, not that unreasonable in hindsight, actually?