Technically speaking, this is probably only a 3 star episode, but it gets an extra star from me for the following exchanges:

Walsh: The Slayer! We thought you were a myth.
Buffy: Well, you were myth-taken.

and

Spike: Picked up a tail.
Giles: Just a little one. It hurts when I sit down.

On 3, I think the in-story reason is basically that since Spike hasn't caused any particular trouble since he came to them (except for escaping that one time), they figure he'll continue to not cause trouble. Also I think they believe their own rhetoric about him being 'impotent.'

1. Walsh is a hack--how unprofessional can you possibly be to be psychoanalyzing your student to someone you just met 10 seconds ago? And, pfft. She's just wrong. Giles is about as good of a male role model at this point as could possibly be expected from someone who's not her biological father.

2. So, my thoughts on this are that Riley really *wants* to be completely okay with Buffy's being stronger than him--but he's not. But, for the record, I really can't blame him too much--he's just indoctrinated into the same societal expectations that everyone else is too--at least he has the good sense to *want* to be okay with strong women.

I don't think it's that she's a hack, I think it's that she's a bloodhound. It takes her twenty seconds to piece together what Giles' role is in Buffy's life, and that it is dwindling (he has to go to *her* to search for Buffy?) and then sets out to destroy him with a few choice words for fun.

Totally agreed. She's horrible and insane, of course she's going to pick on what's bothering someone and then use it to hurt them. She'd have made a brilliantly sociopathic and torture-loving vampire. Soulless Angel would've loved her.

Completely agree on 1. She's smart, she's an exceptionally good liar, and she immediately sees the Scoobies as a threat to co-opt or undermine.

1. No

2. I said another answer. Obviously Riley is not okay with it in the long run, but this early in the relationship I think he honestly thinks he is. Maybe subconsciously he assumes that once he gets to know her skills better and trains more, he'll be able to beat her and restore the "natural order"- i.e. subconsciously he thinks her being stronger is only temporary.

3. I checked every box but the last. A lot of the context around Spike up until he falls in love with Buffy doesn't make sense in-story. It makes me think of how the writers treated Anya, only in reverse: in her case, her characterization is inconsistent; in Spike's case, his characterization is mostly consistent (except for becoming less villainous as a whole than in S2) and everyone's else characterization in regard to him fluctuates.

4. I didn't rate it because I've only seen the episode once, and though I remember thinking it was well-done, I don't have strong feelings on it.

Thanks! :)

I do agree that Anya's lack of remorse is a writing problem, and I'm guilty of being amused by her comments about her vengeance days, however, to some degree I think the her lack of remorse being seen as irrelevant is deliberate.

I think Anya can be compared to Spike and his lack of remorse, around the time after he was chipped and was more immersed with the Scoobies, at least with Dawn, around Season 5-6. Xander sees no problem, or at least isn't disturbed, with Anya's lack of remorse with a thousand years of torturing and killing people and he's is in a relationship with her, both when she's human and somewhat when she's a vengeance demon, in S7. Yet Buffy's relationship with chipped Spike, who's also unremorseful, is seen as perverse and disgusting by Xander after their relationship was revealed. I think that correlation serves to indicate some flaws in Xander's judgment. He overlooks the fact that Anya spent years killing people and being evil, AND the fact that she went right back to killing people in S7, and has the brief fling with her later in S7 too, but with Spike, he just sees him as a monster, no matter the changes Spike goes through throughout the series.

Then again, I might be overthinking this. o.O

Anya is arguably more culpable, really, since she freely chose to become a demon (how's that work with the soul thing, anyway?), and she isn't presented as a significantly different person when she flips between demon and human.

I'd say it reinforces the fact that, although a large emphasis is placed on the soul in the entire Buffyverse, it can mean nearly nothing - considering the big bads of the 6th season being human, most especially Warren. Completely souled but completely evil.

It always bugged me, for instance, that only Willow ever seemed worried that Anya might end up physically hurting Xander, while everybody worried/judged constantly about Buffy's relationships with Angel and Spike.

It is annoying. It seems like the Scoobies hold Buffy up on a higher moral pedestal.

Ultimately I think it's just that Anya was introduced as comic relief, and the writers had a hard time squaring that with the "real" moral issues of the series.

Agreed. For all the problems, though, Anya's still one of my favorite characters. :)

It always bugged me, for instance, that only Willow ever seemed worried that Anya might end up physically hurting Xander, while everybody worried/judged constantly about Buffy's relationships with Angel and Spike.

I'd say that is the case because Willow was the only one who actually got to see evil!Anya, way back in Doppelgangland. She was the one who was tricked into performing the spell. She was the one who had to deal with a vampire counterpart. She was the one who was at the Bronze when Anya got the idea to get her killed. No one else. Of course Willow has problems with Anya.

Also: On Spike/Angel Vs. Anya. The Scoobies know what happened with Anya, but they haven't actually witnessed her badness firsthand. So, yeah, she managed to get them all killed in an alternate reality, but the actual Scoobies haven't really lived it. Of course they're going to see Spike and Angel in a harsher way - unlike Anya, who hasn't actually harmed them (that they know of), Spike and Angel hurt them palpably and strongly. The Scoobies know firsthand what those two are capable of (murder, stalking, kidnapping, attempted murder, you name it), while they know what Anya is capable of only through her stories. Only in Selfless does she become an actual threat, and Buffy immediately decides to kill her. (Cue all the deliberate Angel parallels present in that episode, plus Xander's attack of Buffy for not killing Spike).

when the Scoobies find out Anya has "relapsed" post-Entropy, it should've been retrospectively obvious that she was trying to get them to kill Xander.

Well, they had more pressing issues at the time, so I suppose they didn't really get to think too much about it. As you say, it should've been clear in retrospect, but I don't know how much of Anya-related thinking they could spare to do at the time, what with Willow and (in Buffy's case, probably even Dawn's) Spike... Xander got to talk to Anya (sort of) in the shop, when she told him she couldn't actually hurt him (though I don't think that he really got what she was referring to). Willow and Giles had to deal with her issues. The only one who might've done any thinking about Anya's trying to get Xander killed was Buffy, and you know what? I think she did - hence her comment in Selfless that it had occurred to her before that she might have to kill Anya.

re: Riley and strength issues, while he is taking the initiative vitamin cocktail, I think he totally digs that Buffy is strong. its not until he becomes Joe Normal that he has issues with it.

I think that Riley is being genuine when he talks of being impressed by Buffy's strength, but that there is still that lingering thought in the back of his mind that give him a week and he'll be able to take Buffy down. Even though I realise that it is said in a playful way in response to Buffy earlier overpowering him

I guess I see it as he doesn't have an issue with strong women (as he did end up with Sam after all), but that his issues are more with himself and wanting to feel that he and his partners are equals

Edited at 2011-09-13 09:58 pm (UTC)

In the spirit of fairness, I think I should point out that a lot of women aren't OK with financially supporting a man either. :)

But yes, I think you're absolutely right about Riley's attitude. He doesn't mind that Buffy is strong, but when he's in a subordinate position to her in late S4/S5, it clearly bothers him.

1. Walsh is jealous as hell and determined to score as many points as possible. She cannot bear the idea that Giles is the "leader" of a powerful young woman, and she wants to neutralise his influence on Buffy as soon as possible. She has no right to talk about Buffy in that way and it is grossly unprofessional to make such judgements to a third party she has barely met.

2. Riley likes having a woman he doesn't have to hold back with, but not the thought that Buffy is more powerful than he is and fully in command of herself too.

3. The Doylist explanation is that Spike is inconvenient living either with Xander or Giles, both of whom have love lives, but he's way too popular to dust, so it makes sense to give him a crypt of his own. The Watsonian explanation is that the Scoobies find him a nuisance and believe he is harmless, and want to believe he is harmless. They think he may be useful in future, but don't want him underfoot.

4. I love this episode. Ethan! Giles chasing Walsh! Fyarl!Giles! So much to love, yet also a subtle exploration of where Giles is right now, emotionally and psychologically. 4 stars.

2. I think both answers are true, really. He is attracted to and interested in her awesomeness. But there's a level of exoticization and discomfort there, as well. He both likes and is wary of it. Maybe that never could have developed in a healthy direction because there's that element of othering to it, regardless.

3. I think it's important to them to be The Good Guys. They really want to only kill THE MOST DANGEROUS creatures, and Spike really can't fit into that category anymore.

I suppose you could even say it goes back to everyone's Angel Issues? That if they're going to stake Spike when he can't hurt people no matter what, there's really no excuse for letting Angel go on unliving when they know how potentially volatile he is, and they understandably don't want to deal with that. Erring on the side of mercy with both of them.

1. I thought the prevailing pop-psych "logic" was that people need same-gender role models? Anyway, it's not something a real psych prof would say. Or at least, as a psych major, it's nothing any of my profs would have said. Half-baked, pseudo-Freudian bullshit. But Walsh is supposed to be unlikable, obviously.

2. Ultimately, no. While he's still with the Initiative, he's basically OK with it -- he's in a position of authority, so he doesn't feel like Buffy is his "boss", and the drugs make him nearly her physical equal. In this particular episode, yeah, he's fine.

3. I seem to be one of the few people who see the Scoobies' treatment of Spike in S4 as entirely plausible in the context of the story. He's impotent, he's actively helping them, and they know him as a person -- the last is the most important, because a major point of S4 is to contrast the Scoobies' humanistic approach with the Initiative's bureaucratic one. Sure, Spike's a popular character, but that's not really germane; he was a popular character in S2/S3, but a persistent antagonist, and the writers still found ways to keep him alive. No reason they couldn't have done the same in S4.

4. I gave it 3 stars, but it's probably more like 4. The Giles/Ethan scene in the bar is awesome (boo for Ethan's last appearance).

S4's not my favorite either. I see the themes they were trying to develop, like the formation of adult, independent identity and the relationship of individuals to groups/hierarchies, but the season was less coherent than, say, S2 or S6. It feels more like a series of short stories than like chapters in a novel.

It has some of my favorite and some of my least favorite episodes. It's a weird season.

1) Yes, from Dr. Walsh's perspective, she doesn't have a male role model, but Giles is Buffy's male role model even though from an outside observer their relationship would be misunderstood.

2) He is telling the truth, but he doesn't yet know the amount of information that he has yet to learn about Buffy.

3) Willow is opposed to staking him, and I'm willing to assume that Anya feels the same way what with her giving him gifts for his new place and all. Xander and Giles have been fighting about who's going to ward with him so they are both happy to rid of him. And as for Buffy, I think that she's so focused on Riley and the Initiative, and since she knows that he can't hurt anyone, she doesn't care so long as he isn't getting into trouble.

4) Gave it a 3. It's a good filler episode that continues Giles' storyline and has a little bit on the other characters, but it isn't one that is very memorable or one that I make it a point to watch when I'm viewing this season. Though, I do like the banter between Giles and Spike.

1. Okay, first, Giles can be her male 'role model' if she needs one, second, her male 'role models' keep disappointing her, and thirdly, she doesn't need male 'role models'. Sheesh, no wonder she turned out evil.

2. Another answer. I think he was fine with it as long as he had the Initative Chip of Super Enhancement that made him, not equal to her, but closer than regular human to her. As long as he had that and ALL the weapons and male bonding he wanted with his bros, he was good with it. When he lost all that, he started shivering with perceived male inadequecies.

3. first, second and sixth reasons. Mostly the second one. It would be very difficult, no matter what they said, to outright kill someone they've engaged in, fought with and lived with. Even a vampire.

4. Three stars. Giles and Ethan! Giles chasing Maggie Walsh as the Fyarl demon! Buffy looking into the Fyarl demon's eyes and intuiting that it was Giles in there! A good, solid fun episode.

Whee! I haven't polled for awhile. This episode gets a very solid four stars from me, because we get to see Anthony Head's rather wonderful comedic timing, which we hardly ever get in this series.

Honestly, he is *so good* at what he does that he blends into the background - which is the point, sure, but he's a genius actor really. It is easy to break him down to the stand-bys/tropes: heavy sigh, wipe glasses, frustrated & illogical paternalism, weighty stare. A lesser actor would have turned that sometimes-limited role into a total hack job.

tl;dr - Giles \o/!

I love parts of this episode. The Spike/Giles bits are so awesome. The aforementioned tail bit, the Giles rage, the jumping out of the care to chase Walsh, I could watch a whole episode of FyarlGiles and Spike in the Citroen.

I haven't seen this ep in a while, so the details are kinda fuzzy. As for the first question, however, I don't think Buffy needs any role models at this age. When the need for role models is discussed, I see it as generally referring to young children to teenagers. Buffy's had years of guidance by her mother and by her father-figure Giles. But Buffy's an adult now, she's expected to make her own decisions without the need for a guide or a model to base her decisions upon. She's expected to take all she's learned from those models and apply it to life. But besides all that: she's an adult therefore she can do as she pleases.

As for question number three, I think for Buffy it's mainly the fact that Spike technically can't hurt any humans. She would never kill, what she believes, is a defenseless creature; it's what she's entirely against. However, I think in this case it's naive, because Spike doesn't need his fighting skills to harm or kill anyone. There's a zillion other things he can do, like teaming up with Adam at the end of S4.

Because Spike's a popular character and the writers had to find a way to keep him on the show

DING DING DING we have a winner!

1. She has big issues with men, so I'd say sort of -- but it's not exactly like she NEEDS a stronger man in her life. Maybe just a better picture of positive masculinity so that she doesn't have to accept as read that all men are beasts.

2. He wants to be okay. He tries to be. It's adorable how hard he tries, but he ultimately fails.

3. Mainly that the Scoobies see him as a person, and essentially harmless, and can't continue taking care of him. The Scoobies are the anti-Initiative, and it makes sense then for them to err on the side of compassion and rehabilitation.

#1: Buffy doesn't need models, of either sex.
(Guys! It's college! Young adults, but adults they are: if models are needed, they only have to open their eyes and look hard. Maggie Walsh is evil.)
#2: I think Riley's got a long, long nose...
#3: I think that they can't kill him because he's too much of a person, but I checked a few more boxes because I think that the Scoobies like to think they have reasons!
#5: Get well soon! And thanks for the fun poll.

This gets 5 stars from me due only to the hysterical, juvenile chasing down of Maggie Walsh whilst Giles is a demon.

Payback's a Fyarl Demon.

2. I think Riley likes Buffy's strength as long as he also feels special - and because she's uncertain about it. At that point, he's punched out Parker and been reassuring her, and he doesn't really understand how experienced Buffy is - so Riley feels like he's looking after her a bit. It's a combination of not feeling Special and feeling like he isn't a source of strength for Buffy that makes him lose it, for my money.

5. I LOVE THIS ONE. Giles and Spike! Giles and Ethan! Giles and Buffy! Giles and Maggie! ALL THE GILES.

Jumping in a million years late here because I don't think anyone else has said exactly what I think might true about Riley's statement on Buffy's strength and leadership skills. Riley is in the military, a hierarchical organization that requires leadership at a lot of different levels. So I can totally see Riley loving strength and leadership skills in his subordinates as long as they defer to him when he needs them to.

Combine that with what people were saying above about men loving strong women as long they're not stronger than the guy, and assume that Riley hasn't totally thought through what will happen in the moment that he and Buffy have a serious disagreement about how to carry out a mission, or even a conflicting mission, and it looks to me like we've got a recipe for Riley totally believing that he's okay with Buffy's power in the moment, and still having major issues with it later on when he loses his super-strength and it becomes clear that she isn't going to defer to him.