I've always read this scene a little more prosaically. My read is this: in the lines you quote, Buffy is mostly talking about Sleeper. Spike is more talking about what Sleeper represents--which is his entire past. The exchange is as follows:

BUFFY
You don't understand. When I left the room earlier, I heard you talking to someone—

SPIKE
Do you have any idea what I'm capable of?

BUFFY
I was in the cellar with you. I saw what you did.

SPIKE
I'm not talking about the cellar. The people in the cellar got off easy. I'm talking about me. Buffy, you have never met the real me.

BUFFY
(crosses arms) Believe me, I'm well aware of what you're capable of.

SPIKE
No, you got off easy too. (stands) Do you know how much blood you can drink from a girl before she'll die? I do. You see, the trick is to drink just enough to know how to damage them just enough so that they'll still cry when you— (chokes up) 'cause it's not worth it if they don't cry.

BUFFY
It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this.

So Buffy introduces the fact that she thinks something was controlling Spike. Then Spike brings up his past because he sees what he did (while under the First's influence) and what he did (back in the day) as the same. Buffy defends her cred of knowing what Spike is capable of--indicating that she does see Spike as responsible for his actions pre-soul. So when she says that "it's not you," I think she's changing the topic back to her original point--that he's being controlled. She and Spike are talking at slight angles to each other. So the final line reads to me as Buffy saying, "I know you think that what you did in the cellar is the same as what you did before, but it's not. You're being controlled." She says that Spike's not the one doing *THIS* (the present problem of the girls from the cellar...and Holden), not that Spike wasn't the one doing *THAT*.

When she says she saw him change, she's talking about seeing him change in the cellar, from a monster back into something like a man. He offers penance by asking her to kill him. It's not about the soul, or about his acts before the soul, except indirectly (because, I suppose, Sleeper is a whole lot of the Spike and Spuffy arc in miniature).

So I think Buffy's argument comes down to (in summary):

1) Spike is the same person as the person without a soul;
2) Spike is NOT the same person as the one killing those girls in the cellar--that's some kind of external controlling thing;
3) Spike is wrong to draw an equivalence between his soulless acts that were of his own free will and these acts that were the result of his being controlled;
4) what impressed Buffy was that Spike "changed" and offered penance in the cellar, before her eyes; this helped her see that he was worth saving.

Anyway, the episode is definitely tightly structured around power games--Wood with the students, as you point out, and Willow and Andrew (so much love--"I am Willow! I am death!") and Xander/Anya's good cop/bad cop routine with Andrew (love also!). But I haven't thought too deeply about What It All Means. I love the moment when Xander tells Andrew about his own despair and heartbreak, and Andrew can't conceive of what that's like ("sounds bad"), and then he quickly shifts gears..."Well, then she tore out his intestines and rubbed it in his face and took pictures of it." I think it reflects back to Spike's powerlessness in the face of the First, and Buffy's granting Spike power by encouraging his agency. And Wilow, Xander and Anya all gain some modicum of power via self-respect in their interactions with Andrew.

Agree. I always think of the beginning of Sleeper--when Buffy's sitting in Xander's apartment, waiting for Spike and talking to Xander--Xander questions Spike's goodness, and Buffy gets frustrated because it's like she's really operating on instinct, and can't put her feelings in words in a way that will be meaningful to Xander--and she just says, "No, he's changed. I can feel it" or something. And that's even when she's suspicious of him--she still feels an instinctive pull to defend him and to recognize the work he's already done.

The "change," in "I saw you change" is therefore about the soul and the aura of penance and carefulness that comes with having a soul. And--I'd add--the knowledge that he sought the soul--that he pursued penance and self-improvement even before he had a soul. Which is where the speech to Dawn in Him comes in--he knew what he did was wrong, sought to better himself, and now is seeking penance. All of those things combined (being able to recognize wrong doing, seeking a soul to prevent further wrongdoing, and feeling profound remorse for past crimes) are what show her that he's changed. And his actions at the end of Sleeper and even his attempt to goad her into killing him in Never Leave Me only confirm his worth to her. They only confirm his remorse and the depth of his anguish.

Look! New icon!

Good point. I don't think the whole conversation is really about the cellar--and certainly she gets to the "you fought to become a better man" thing.

BUFFY
No. I don't hate like that. Not you, or myself. Not anymore. You think you have insight now because your soul's drenched in blood? You don't know me. You don't even know you. Was that you who killed those people in the cellar? Was that you who waited for those girls?

SPIKE
There's no one else.

BUFFY
That's not true. Listen to me. You're not alive because of hate or pain. You're alive because I saw you change. Because I saw your penance.

SPIKE
(lunges violently at her, but chains hold him back) Window dressing.

BUFFY
Be easier, wouldn't it, it if were an act, but it's not. (walks toward him) You faced the monster inside of you and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man.

SPIKE
Buffy...

BUFFY
(in his face) And you can be. You are. You may not see it, but I do. I do. I believe in you, Spike.

Bolding mine, obviously. I think Buffy is focusing on this incident specifically to prove something about Spike. When Spike says "There's no one else," he's both denying an external trigger and a "better person" inside him, who wouldn't kill those people. When Buffy says "That's not true," I think she's simultaneously denying both. She's already asked rhetorically if it was him that killed those girls in the cellar, where the answer is "no," not because he fought for a soul but because there's a trigger. But once Spike tries to take responsibility Buffy is both responding to his false claim of responsibility and to his false (literal) claim that there was no one else present to control. So she's talking about both, and they kind of bleed together. So yes, I think she is talking about the soul/BY when, in the next sentence, she mentions his penance (and the later lines make this even clearer); but I think she's still also talking about the scene in the basement. Because she was just talking about it, in asking him who those girls were. I feel like sometimes in the heat of an argument/discussion I start saying things that mean more than one thing--not deliberately, but intuitively, emotionally--and let the multiple meanings stand, and I think Buffy is doing the same here. He's alive proximately because she saw his penance in the cellar (though, yes, the First controlling him was a big factor as well), and he's alive approximately because she saw his penance by getting his soul.

See my reply to Emmie above--I think that she's sort of saying more than one thing at once, which is possibly just a bizarre reading of the way people actually talk. (I'm a bit tired, as well, so that might be contributing to a bit of a loopy reading of the dialogue.) She's talking both about Spike in Sleeper and Spike's general penance, I think, and so I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. You're right though that the First's toying with Spike was a big part of the reason she dropped the stake.

Haha, yes, pretty much.

Though I think it's more:

Buffy: So, you'll be happy to know that you have a trigger so all those deaths? Totes not your fault.
Spike: LET ME TELL YOU ABOUT MY EVIL PAST!!!
Buffy: Spike, this has nothing to do with your evil past. We're talking about the basement right now.
Spike: I WAS THE BIG BAD! REALLY!
Buffy: Spike, stop changing the subject. You're pretty dumb.

Anya's slapping Xander is a bit of a shock too, though I guess there isn't the same power differential there. I can see the argument that they go too far. I think Anya is still not at the point where she has too much respect for individual human comfort, even if she's gotten to the point of respect for human life.

I'm very, very tired so this may not make a lot of sense (and I may read this tomorrow and have a completely different reaction), but I always thought the "It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this" was about the First's trigger and Spike literally not being able to control those actions, which is irrelevant to the souled/soulless dichotomy. Spike is bringing up his past to try to goad her into staking him, and she's not necessarily excusing it the way she excuses Angel for Angelus, she's just saying that his evil past has no relevance to his trigger-induced slaughter. The rest of the dialogue, eh, I agree it's not clear what her opinion is. Course, I don't think the writers had a coherent opinion on what a soul meant either.

Hope you feel better!

The power motif that you point out is interesting. What I notice about it is that all these people are basically using power as a rhetorical tool--they're TALKING about their power, not exercising it. And doesn't someone say something like that about the First at some point--Buffy, I'm guessing? That it's all talk. It only has as much power as you give it?

And also--interesting because the Bringers can't talk. So, while everyone else is busy intimidating each other with their fancy 'power'-laden words, the Bringers only operate through action.

What's great about Buffy's mocking the First for being a Big Talker is that she's fighting it with words. Buffy knows the power of words. It's why she quips, why she laughs in the face of death.

Yes. I love this connection--that one of her strategies for fighting evil is laughing at it. Essentially saying that laughter is the light in the darkness. And it's a powerful way of redefining the narrative (which is what many oppressed cultures have done--I'm most familiar with Irish comedy/dark humor, but the same basic argument can be applied to Jewish humor and African American humor), that when faced with a bleak reality, they turn the tables on it, and start making fun of it--they FIND a way to find joy amidst the darkness. And, ultimately, Buffy's whole strategy centers around changing the narrative. Changing it from one girl in all the world to many.

I think I might be rambling.

Which makes me think of Sineya as presented in Restless. Living in the act of death, no words. Voiceless.

Ah. Interesting connection. And that sort of goes along with what we're saying about humor/mocking/rhetoric--Sineya doesn't use language to reframe her own narrative, to the point where she loses language itself, and just lives through action--and through obedience. Which, is the same thing the Bringers do.

Also--interesting about Sineya, because I don't know if you remember when we were talking about Buffy's love language use--I said something about how perhaps all Slayers had action as their love language. I didn't even think of Sineya--but I think her lack of language is a pretty strong argument that slayers do, in fact, all use action as their primary language.

I'm feeling woozy and in need of a lie-down

Feel better, Gabs.

*hugs*

Interestingly, in one of the earlier versions of the script, Buffy has a line in which she explicitly says that she saw Spike change even before he got the soul. That line was cut and the whole scene tightened up considerably in the aired version. The scene as aired plays much better overall, but I've always regretted the loss of that line. Without it, I have a hard time seeing Buffy's Thoughts On Vampires as having changed much.

Yeah, I agree with everybody else that Buffy is specifically referring to Spike being controlled when she says, "You're not doing this." I don't think she is remotely in the same position as she was with Angel. Her eyes are clear.

I have the same difficulty 'reading' Buffy in this episode too? I can't put my finger on it. And I feel overall that in this season, her feelings towards Spike are very transparent - but not here. (After this one, her caring for him is plain for all to see.) I would guess that she's making a concerted effort to keep things "businesslike" - so, she's decided to help him for good, 'intellectual' reasons, as opposed to the plain desperation/need she felt with Angel. Maybe that's where the 'coldness' comes from? She's determined to keep her wits about her.

In some ways I wonder if the anger we see when she knocks him out isn't directed toward herself (a little reminiscent of Dead Things)--anger at herself for underestimating him.

I think that is the best explanation for that moment I've heard.

Yeah, being angry at Spike for being controlled really doesn't make sense in light of her insistence that it's not his fault, so it's undoubtedly projected anger at herself.

Agreed. Especially about trying to avoid judgment from her friends. *wince*

I think Buffy initially believes this is simply about the First and the trigger, but Spike gets her to realize that there's a lot more going on. If the First is controlling him, Spike knows what kind of monster he can become. Buffy's never met the real Spike. The one who slaughtered half of Europe. I think he tries to explain this, yet Buffy keeps referring to the present situation. So, Spike dives deeper. He wants to get the truth as to why Buffy won't kill him. And when he does that, it's like Buffy says, "Fine. You want the truth? Here's the truth." She then tells him the real reason he's alive and the real reason why she won't kill him. It's because she saw him change and saw his penance. I think the trigger is just another obstacle that would prevent Spike from being the man Buffy believes he can be, especially since he got his soul back.

I'm going to throw my disagreement hat into the ring here.

I think Buffy's opinions on vampires started changing in Season Five, which incidentally is when I think the show started to revisit its views on vampires. Not just because of Spike, but also because of Harmony (for both TPTB (the show's creators, writers, etc) and for Buffy). Buffy and the Scoobies had known Harmony in life, and consider her largely the same person, only now with fangs. Completely different than the way they viewed Angel/Angelus, though his shift is also greater than Spike's or Harmony's in souled vs. unsouled.

I totally agree that when she says, "It's not your fault. You're not the one doing this," she's not referring to the past but to the interference and controlling of the first. But I think when she talks about watching him change, she's referring to his character growth over Seasons Five and Six, not him getting his soul. She alludes to this in "Him" when she's talking to Dawn, and she says that he left because he knew what he did was wrong. That's her recognizing that Spike with a soul may be subsumed with guilt over all his past wrongs, but he was heading in that direction (as far as an unsouled vampire could go) even without the soul. I think the soul represents two things to Buffy: The having of it certainly, but it's the going to GET IT that truly resonates with her in her beginning to forgive him.

Buffy's protestations that he's an evil soulless thing at the beginning of Season Six have more to do with how shaken her world view is of EVERYTHING, and how much she knows that her feelings (whatever they might be at that point) for him are unhealthy. If she truly felt that way,not only would she NEVER have entrusted him with Dawn, but she CERTAINLY wouldn't have taken Dawn there after SR, which she did, only to find just Clem.

I am throwing around ideas on Spike and souls and SR in my head, I hope to have my thoughts spewed in my own journal at some point soon.

My random complication thoughts thrown in, have at it!

Oh, and also, feel better!

Edited at 2011-02-13 04:41 am (UTC)

Oh, I definitely think Buffy thinks there's a difference between souled/soulless, and this never changes (except somewhat in BY). What changes is her LEVEL of thinking on it (also perhaps with TPTB, which is where the confusion lies). Angel/Angelus are COMPLETELY different good/evil wise (I'd have to have a closer rewatch as far as personality). As the Judge notes, "there's no humanity there." But her earlier thinking was that the lack of soul made them a completely different person. (I'm saying this badly.) Buffy sees a soulless Spike as a man with insurmountable limits, but she no longer thinks of soulless as irredeemably evil, just fundamentally flawed.

I'm losing coherence, and frustrated with it, but when she breaks up with him in AYW, she's recognizing that he isn't an evil, soulless, thing, but his lack of morality (read: soul) will never let her truly love him. In "Entropy" she doesn't deny that HE believes in their love, but she can't feel it. Which is undoubtedly partially denial on her part, but is a truthful understanding that, as is, a continuing relationship is untenable.

And now I'm descending into incoherence.

Edited at 2011-02-13 07:20 am (UTC)

So what are we seeing here with Buffy's views? Is she rethinking her Angelus-influenced ideology that soulless vampires are distinct from their souled counterparts? Or is she rationalizing Spike as an exception? Or is she only taking notice because of the soul?

I think...well, I have two answers. For this episode and this season and the bulk of the last specifically, I'd have to say that yes, she is rethinking her ideology of soulless vamps due to Spike's exception to the rule move of purposely seeking a soul, which would mean yes, she's only taking notice of the soul.

On the other hand, however, I'd say that she took notice all the way back towards the end of s5, starting with "Intervention"--What you did...that was real. I won't forget it.

The problem was she did in fact forget it--for a good long while. Or, maybe she didn't forget and was just merely in denial, but then the soul getting on Spike's part--well, can't ignore the changes he'd made anymore at that point.

Convoluted rambly answer? Sure!

I think Spike feels the same way, as he gets increasingly frustrated through the episode until she tells him she believes in him.

Referring to my rambly answer up above, Spike doesn't have a reason to believe her at that point--he's lived through the flip flopping. Not to mention her initial "It wasn't you, doing those things"--I think there was a mega disconnect, cause Buffy was referring to the victims of Spike being hypnotized by the First, whereas Spike was referring to all of the victims in his conscious mind before the chip. So yeah--he did do those things, just not those things that had been done by his hands (not his mind) lately. But the fact that she believes in him and seems to mean it--that washes away all of the confusion and ambiguity. She believes in him to be a better man and to make the right choices, and for the moment, that's enough for him.

Read the extended version of the basement scene at Buffyworld - It's really good :)
http://www.buffyworld.com/buffy/scripts/131_scri.html