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Buffy/Spike, Consent, and S6

will57
Trigger warning! This post deals with the AR in SR as well as other examples of questionable consent during S6.

From the AR to consent issues in S6, in general. This post is gonna lay out the instances of questionable consent in the Buffy/Spike relationship of S6. Some of these examples are often-discussed by fans. Some aren't. I want to try to analyze them, put them in context, examine the pattern and the development of their relationship through these incidents of questionable consent.

Let's set the ground rules here: This post isn't intended to launch a Buffy vs Spike: Who Hurt The Other More? debate. This post isn't attacking either character, nor, on the flipside, is it attempting to exonerate either character. It's also not an attempt at "proving a point". In this post, I am pointless.

Okay, that out of the way, it might be helpful to be familiar with this post of mine about consent. If you don't feel like reading that long entry, let me sum up as best I can:

Consent isn't something we, as objective viewers, can easily determine from our couches while watching the show. The only person who knows if consent was given in any situation is...that person. Barring the more violent cases of rape, it can be difficult to determine whether an incident "counts" as rape or not unless we get clarification from the parties involved. There's no One Size Fits All answer. One experience may be a violation to one person but a kickin' good time for another. In the former, it's rape. In the latter, it's not.

This leads to a couple definitional issues I need to get out of the way:

Implied consent: Kinda a tricky thing. It's the standard between couples in a romantic relationship, even though it probably shouldn't be. It's when one partner initiates sex with the assumption that the other is consenting, usually because of their already-existing relationship. Sometimes, they're be right. The other person does consent, and everybody's fine. The failure to obtain consent doesn't necessarily mean that a particular incident is rape. It can. But it doesn't always.

Questionable consent: As used in this post, it refers to a situation wherein one partner's nonconsent is indicated but their partner continues their actions anyway. The reason it's "questionable" is because of the traditional seduction patterns the incident may otherwise fall into.

Right, I think that's all the disclaimers I need. I hope.




Smashed


The Offender: Buffy

The Context: Having discovered that his chip doesn't work on Buffy, Spike initiates a knock-down drag-out to release his two year's worth of pent-up aggression on her. In the middle of the fight, Buffy begins to kiss Spike, thus launching the S6 Buffy/Spike relationship.

Analysis: This is a fairly "traditional" ravisher/ravishee scenario, just with the genders reversed and with them beating the shit out of each other beforehand. Buffy has the new knowledge that Spike can hurt her, so the imbalance created by the chip is not an issue. However, there is no clarification of consent on anybody's part. Buffy initiates the sex rather violently without concern for Spike's go-ahead.

That being said, this incident fits best in the "implied consent" category. After their bespelled kiss in OMWF, Spike has been harassing Buffy about wanting more, going so far as to call her a tease when she wasn't willing to smooch him again. As such, Buffy's assumption that Spike wants sex with her doesn't come from nowhere, and once the kissing starts, it proceeds from there with both of them enthusiastically participating. Implied consent is, by nature, a shady area because that is something that should be discussed between a couple beforehand. The fact that it isn't, and that their sexual relationship is kicked off with such an act, heralds the even more questionable consent to come. Their relationship is based off assumptions.

Wrecked


The Offender: Spike

The Context: This is the morning after Smashed. Buffy wakes up and is immediately disgusted. She wants nothing more than to leave, and she says so explicitly many times. While she's searching for her boots, Spike grabs her and pulls her into his lap. He reaches his hand under her skirt and fondles her while she tells him to stop.

Analysis: This shows a far more traditional take on the ravisher/ravishee scenario. Buffy's lack of consent is disregarded by Spike, and her eventual capitulation reveals the push-pull nature of their relationship. This ain't a healthy thing.

From the shooting script:

Spike's expression hardens and he sits up and catches Buffy by the wrists, yanking her toward his naked self. She holds herself away from him.

SPIKE: Don't say that.

BUFFY: What do you think is going to happen, Spike? We're gonna read the paper together? Play footsie under the...rubble?

Spike's hand disappears below frame, starts caressing her. She looks affected, despite herself.

SPIKE: Not exactly what I had in mind.

Buffy weakens for a beat. Then she finds her resolve, HITS HIS hand away.

BUFFY: Stop-

SPIKE: Make me.

He moves to touch her again, she hits him away again. They end up in a tussle, sexual tension building until they can't take it. They kiss - it heats up faster than a microwave. Goddamn. She lies on top of him - feels him respond - which SHOCKS her back to herself. She pulls away.

BUFFY: No. No. I have to...

SPIKE: Stay. I'm stuck here. Sun's up.

They're both drunk with it. Hot, pressing against each other. They kiss again.


This is much closer to a nonconsensual situation than the Smashed sex. Buffy explicitly tells him to stop. Spike doesn't. She hits his hand away, physically evading his advances. He keeps at it. Indeed, he persists in his attempt to "seduce" her until she gives in. This plays very much into the traditional models of sex that perpetuate rape culture where the women are the gatekeepers and the men are required to do whatever necessary to get to the "goods". As rape culture dictates, the woman wants this to happen. She enjoys it. At the same time she's saying, "No", she wants the man to succeed and force her to give in. If this sounds disturbing, it's because it is.

It is notable that Buffy does eventually make him stop, but only when he verbally crosses a line (mentioning fucking a Slayer) rather than when he crosses any physical boundary. His persistence in disregarding her refusal to consent is problematic, and will establish a pattern.

Gone


The Offender: Spike

The Context: Spike drops by for an unexpected visit while Buffy and Willow are cooking breakfast. Willow quickly bows out to go back to bed, and Spike corners Buffy against the sink and proceeds to fondle her. She tells him to stop it. He does, but only because Xander enters.

Analysis: We're, again, seeing what we saw in Wrecked. Despite Buffy's instruction to "stop it", Spike persists and is rewarded with her lustful moan. It's very much "her words say no, but her eyes say yes".

From the shooting script:

Buffy squints at him. His other hand reaches below frame.

BUFFY: Um, what the hell's that me-- ohh.

Against her will, she lets out a slight, soft moan.

SPIKE'S HAND rubs her thigh, moves up toward her hips.

BUFFY: (hushed) Stop it.

ON SPIKE as he reacts to something and glances down. Then, looks back to Buffy with a somewhat bemused expression.

XANDER (0.S.): Good Godfrey Cambridge, Spike...

ON XANDER, standing in the doorway.


This is, presumably, their first encounter after their initial sexual experience in Smashed. Spike is itching for another go. Buffy is playing the good girl, putting on an act of resistance but continuing to succumb to Spike's seductions. Again, like the Wrecked interplay, this establishes a pattern of "no" not meaning "no" between the two, which will lead to badness later.

The Offender: Buffy

The Context: Buffy's newly invisible, and is eager to live it up as much as possible. She goes to Spike's crypt, throws him against the wall, then proceeds to initiate sex with him.

Analysis: This is actually very similar to the Smashed sex. Some have said that Spike seems scared in this scene, but I've always read him as being largely confused.

From the shooting script:

The TV is suddenly switched off.

SPIKE (cont'd): Ghost, is it? Go haunt the living, like a good spook.

STEADYCAM CLOSE ON HIM, circling. He seems to sense the presence and suddenly moves to strike out.

NEW ANGLE as his attack is blocked, he's grabbed and thrown up against a wall, hard. Before he can respond, his shirt's ripped open, buttons fly. Looking down at some sensation on his chest, his expression softens, conveying deep confusion.

SPIKE (cont'd): Buffy?

BUFFY (V.0.): I told you... Stop trying to see me

Before Spike can say another word, he's thrown OUT OF FRAME.


Buffy's failure to secure consent is, again, reminiscent of Smashed. However, there's also the incident earlier in the episode, as detailed above, wherein Spike made clear his own desires. As such, this is more of an implied consent situation than the more dangerous questionable consent that has characterized the incidents in Wrecked and earlier in Gone. Despite the less-than-ideal nature of implied consent, it is the standard in real life between couples in a relationship. Had Spike not visited and fondled Buffy earlier in this episode, this incident of sex would be far more problematic. Instead, it's more indicative of the way we, society, view implied consent as the standard than anything else.

The Offender: Buffy

The Context: After their sex is interrupted by Xander, Spike gets frustrated and tells Buffy to leave. Instead, she attempts to give him a blow job. The next scene has her on the street, kicking a can and complaining about Spike booting her out. We're given no clarification as to whether she finished the blow job and then was kicked out or whether Spike stopped her from the get-go and kicked her out.

Analysis: From the shooting script:

SPIKE: Fun's over. Just go. Get dressed, if you can find your clothes and push off. 'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather--

He stops, suddenly surprised, and looks down at his below-frame nether region.

SPIKE (cont'd): Okay, that's cheating!


This is actually frightfully similar to the scene in Wrecked, discussed above. In both, one party wants to end things. In both, the other person makes a sexual overture in an attempt to get them to change their mind. With Wrecked, it was Spike grabbing Buffy and fondling her. In this episode, it's Buffy performing fellatio on Spike. The main difference is that in Wrecked, Buffy explicitly told Spike to stop, which he ignored. In Gone, he notes that she's "cheating", which is an ambiguous response.

Just like Spike uses sex to attempt to entice Buffy, Buffy does the same right back to him. Gone marks their second sexual encounter and shows that they're firmly in the realm of questionable consent.

Dead Things


The Offender: Spike

The Context: Unable to properly hang with her friends at the Bronze, Buffy wanders up onto the balcony where Spike meets her. He proceeds to have intercourse with her, despite her telling him, "Don't".

Analysis: From the shooting script:

Spike appears out of the shadows. Buffy doesn't turn around as he slides in close behind her.

SPIKE: What would they think of you? If they found out all the things you've done.

His hand moves down her body.

SPIKE (cont'd): If they knew who you really were...

BUFFY (a whisper): Don't.

SPIKE: Stop me.

She doesn't. His overcoat swings in, obscuring the action as he gets her skirt up. Her breathing quickens. She gasps. Spike moans, his face consumed in the moment. Buffy grips he railing, her knuckles white.


Suffice to say, "Stop me" is not an appropriate response to someone's refusal to consent. This is in the same questionable consent category as Wrecked with Spike persisting in his seduction despite Buffy's telling him to stop.

Seeing Red


The Offender: Spike

The Context: Buffy and Spike have been broken up for many episodes at this point. Spike's given a glimmer of hope that he may be able to get back together with Buffy so he approaches her in her bathroom to talk things over. Things progress badly, and Spike, in his desperation, attempts to force her to have sex despite her numerous pleas for him to stop.

Analysis: From the shooting script:

He moves to kiss her. She gently tries to stop him.

BUFFY: Spike --

SPIKE: Let yourself feel it...

He's becoming more forceful.

BUFFY: Stop it...

It's quickly escalated into a very real, very ugly struggle.

SPIKE: You love me...

BUFFY: Don't --

She stumbles back. She grabs onto the shower curtain, falling. The shower curtain rings pop off like gunfire as she goes down, WHACK! She gasps in pain as her back cracks against the edge of the tub, then her head as she stumbles more, dazing her.

Spike is on her, pinning her against the back of the tub, oblivious to her pain. His kisses are desperate, forceful.

SPIKE (kissing her): Let it go... Let yourself love me...

BUFFY (over): Stop it... please... stop...

He doesn't listen.

Buffy struggles with Spike, pain shooting through her injured back. He's on top of her, desperate, hungry.

SPIKE (kissing, touching): I know you felt it... When I was inside you...

BUFFY: Don't...

She manages to push him off. She scuttles for the door like a wounded animal. He catches her leg, scrambling back on top of her and pinning her wrists down.

SPIKE: You're going to let me inside you...

BUFFY: Please...

SPIKE: You'll feel it again, Buffy...

BUFFY: Spike, stop...

He tears at her robe, getting it open.

SPIKE: I'll make you feel it...

BUFFY: STOP!

She shoves him back, exploding. He flies across the room, smashing midway up the opposite wall, cracking the plaster and crashing to the floor. Buffy stands, trembling with rage, fear -- and reclaimed power.


This is like Wrecked and Dead Things turned up to 11. It starts in familiar territory with the push-pull. However, this is not in the context of an already-existing relationship. Moreover, Buffy displays none of the guilty enjoyment she had previously. It wanders out of familiar territory once Buffy falls over. Then we get an extended struggle that involves Buffy crawling away at one point only to have Spike pull her back and pin her down. This is unequivocally an attempted rape.

****

Why's Seeing Red different?

Put simply: it isn't. The bathroom scene in SR is a tricky demonstration to the viewership of how disturbing those previous seduction scenes are. They contain the same basic elements: Spike makes an overture, Buffy refuses, Spike ignores her and keeps doing it. However, SR amps this up so that it's hard to deny that this is fucked up - that this is an attempted rape.

What does this mean for the earlier scenes that displayed this pattern? Honestly, that's up for debate. I think the SR allows us to view this as a commentary on how harmful the seduction trope is. Are those scenes - such as the DT balcony scene or the Wrecked fondling scene - sexual assault? Again, that's up for debate. It depends on if Buffy's consent was ultimately there or not (which isn't necessarily immediately evident on the basis of what she says). What is apparent is that the act of ignoring a person's nonconsent, as Spike did, is wrong. No matter if that person "really wanted it" or not. Best case scenario, you get something like DT where consent is questionable and even Buffy may not be sure if she truly wanted it. Worst case scenario, you get SR which would have progressed to rape had Buffy not kicked him across the room.

The Buffy of It

Buffy's not devoid of power in this relationship. Most of her infractions involve taking advantage of implied consent, which she does quite enthusiastically. She's using Spike, as she admits to him in AYW. It's hard to say that she's disregarding his consent because we never get a clear case of Spike refusing consent. The closest we come is the fellatio attempt in Gone, and that is more of an act of appeasement rather than taking her own pleasure.

So, then the question: Was Spike raped or sexually assaulted by Buffy in Smashed or Gone? Again, it's hard to say. Just like Buffy's consent in DT and Wrecked, we can only make guesses as to Spike's consent in this particular episode. In both cases, Spike's later shown actively participating, so that lends support to the idea that Buffy's assumption wasn't off the mark. What we can tell, though, is that Buffy was wrong to assume that Spike's consent was implicit. That's something that should be discussed between a couple before launching into it, and Buffy was vehemently against any sort of talking with Spike. This can easily lead to a nonconsensual situation. Whether it actually did or not is dependent on Spike's ultimate mindset, which we can only make guesses at.

The Spike of It

Likewise, Spike's not devoid of power. He's offering himself up as "a willing slave" for Buffy to use, but he also exerts his own desire over her. His multiple instances of disregarding her consent take the form of him challenging her to "stop [him]". She never effectively does until SR, but that doesn't mean consent was ultimately there. In Dead Things, Buffy says, "Why do I let Spike do those things to me?" That implies that Buffy's not even sure of her own consent in this. Spike's definitely taking advantage of her mental illness, and it isn't until she's recovering at the end of the season that she's able to fully stop him.

The Discussion of It

I expect comments of awesome on this one. As I said, I don't have much in the way of a point. I'm just laying out the different scenes with an eye on the feminist view of consent so that patterns and such can be more easily seen. What does this say about the larger Buffy/Spike dynamic? Does this prove Buffy or Spike was absolutely "the abuser"? What about Spike's soullessness? Does that have any relevance? Is consent a non-issue between superpowered beings?

*shrugs*

Again, I have no point. Discuss at will in the comments. Formulate your own theories and conclusions. Be brilliant.


Comments

ms_scarletibis
Dec. 9th, 2010 01:45 am (UTC)
I sort of think this was just him being a smart ass and seizing on the *blowing* birthday trope. Because, ya know, it was Buffy's birthday.

But to say that he'll "let" her do it--you don't find that phrasing to be odd? Why not "You can blow out my candles"? Why does he have to give her permission to do so? He's not asking her to do it as a favor--he's saying that she is allowed to do so. If he wanted to make an innuendo birthday joke, why not offer to eat her cake or something? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Spike had thrown out his romantic tendencies after Tabula Rasa. When Buffy wasn't responding to his sensitivity, he busted out all his jerkiest moves, including calling her names (a tease), telling her she had no one but him, implying that he was only with her because of the status of screwing a slayer, and cramming his hand up her skirt despite her protests. These aren't the moves of *romantic* Spike.

I think that depends on one's assessment of the situation. Here's mine:

I think that prior to s5 of Ats, Spike was definitely not his own man. He let his love interests (Drusilla, Buffy) to take the lead, and was the man (or monster) that they wanted him to be. He wasn't only Love's bitch, but Love's bitch in clay form, molded to whoever's hands he happened to be in. Spike wanted everything (and not just to be fuck buddies), and if we backed things up to TR, OMWF, or hey, all the way back to the ill fated "Crush," if asked, I'm willing to bet he would have liked the opportunity to romance Buffy instead of getting fucked by her in some dilapidated building. In "Smashed," he didn't ask for anything more than making out. Jumping right into sex was not a place that he planned or going, nor do I think that it's a place he wanted to go. Spike's goal was to be hers--to be official, and not some nasty, little secret. He accepted it, sure, but that isn't what he wanted.

telling her she had no one but him, implying that he was only with her because of the status of screwing a slayer

The "no one but him" thing--Buffy is the one who gave him that impression in the first place, since she decided to repeatedly confide in him and not her best friends or sister.

As for the "screwing the slayer" thing--he laughs after he says it at her reaction. I think he said that purposely to see what her reaction would be. Is it really all about the sex for her? Does she actually give a crap? And so forth. That's one line out of several--if one were to review that scene again in its entirety, and note all that is said and the reactions, his line about doing a slayer (or rather, the intent behind it) would come off a bit differently.
deird1
Dec. 9th, 2010 01:53 am (UTC)
I'm willing to bet he would have liked the opportunity to romance Buffy instead of getting fucked by her in some dilapidated building.

I don't see it. Spike's idea of "romance" tends to involve lots of rope, beating each other up, and general slaughter... and as much kinky sex as possible.
gabrielleabelle
Dec. 9th, 2010 01:55 am (UTC)
Plus, Spike calls it a "revelation" in Wrecked. He seemed pretty pleased with the dilapidated building sex after the fact.
samsom
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:59 am (UTC)
I always thought the 'revelation' was him realizing that he wasn't completely powerless with Buffy, that she wanted him every bit as much as he wanted her (backed up by the totally gobsmacked face he had when she, er, mounted him the night before). The very next thing he says is "you can act as high and mighty as you like, but I know where you live now Slayer, I've tasted it."

gabrielleabelle
Dec. 9th, 2010 03:02 am (UTC)
Ah. Fair point. I still maintain that Spike's general attitude to the Smashed sex was pretty well pleased. He's preening in the afterglow during the opening scene of Wrecked.
samsom
Dec. 9th, 2010 03:12 am (UTC)
I'm not sure I'd call it preening. Maybe it is, a little, because she's a slayer. But that afterglow in Wrecked looked a lot like sexual satiation to me, and satisfaction in realizing that Buffy desired him as ferociously as he desired her. He hasn't realized yet that it's more than that, that Buffy is still very much depressed. He thinks they're in a relationship, that she 'was there with him'...emotionally speaking.
gabrielleabelle
Dec. 9th, 2010 03:19 am (UTC)
Well, yes. He's dissatisfied with their relationship. That's a separate issue from the sex, though.
ms_scarletibis
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:05 am (UTC)
"Kinky sex" depends on one's POV, as I've learned in a previous poll...not to mention that Spike was not the first or last person who mentioned tying up partners during sex--there was Giles (handcuffs), Wes (more handcuffs), Xander (who longed for shackles...).

Anyway, we never actually see any of that until his interactions with Buffy in s6. What we do see, however, is Spike having sex (in beds) without his crypt being in disarray, dancing at clubs, and gifts such as heart lockets. We never see him beat up Dru or Harm or even hear about it so...none of that exists until he's involved with Buffy.
deird1
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:10 am (UTC)
How about him tazering Buffy, tying her up, and threatening to kill her - as part of him trying to get together with her?

Or going off to find Drusilla and torture her until she likes him again?


And I'm not saying Spike's the only person in the Buffyverse who's into kinky sex - not by any means.
ms_scarletibis
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:23 am (UTC)
The threat of killing her was empty, since he could have just let Dru do it off the bat. The tazing--he didn't actually taze her--Dru did. The tying up--he did to make her listen. Not saying that any of it was right or agreeable, but dressing up like Riley and being a gentleman didn't work/get her to listen, so he tried something else. However, it's not as if he planned things to go that route.

Drusilla--we are shown in flashback what happens when he finds Dru--that whole torture thing? Didn't happen.

And I'm not saying Spike's the only person in the Buffyverse who's into kinky sex - not by any means.

No, but lots of folks do...
deird1
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:27 am (UTC)
we are shown in flashback what happens when he finds Dru

When? We're shown them breaking up over a chaos demon - and then no more stuff with Dru until she arrives in Sunnydale.


The threat of killing her was empty, since he could have just let Dru do it off the bat.

So... you're saying that because he only threatened to kill her and let someone else tazer her... and tied her up to make her listen to him... that proves he's a true romantic?
(no subject) - diamondtook862 - Dec. 9th, 2010 03:51 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - blackfrancine - Dec. 9th, 2010 05:37 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - shipperx - Dec. 9th, 2010 04:19 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - deird1 - Dec. 9th, 2010 04:37 am (UTC) - Expand
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shipperx
Dec. 9th, 2010 04:16 am (UTC)
I don't see it. Spike's idea of "romance" tends to involve lots of rope, beating each other up, and general slaughter... and as much kinky sex as possible.

Really? I mean, don't get me wrong, he loves the fight and the snark. But it took him how many days to think up that the way to win Drusilla back would be to go the S&M route? It wasn't the first, second, or third thing on his mind. His thought was a love spell. Similarly, Angel gave Dru a heart -- literally. Spike gave her a necklace.

Spike loves the 'dance' with Buffy, but I don't think his idea of romance necessarily involves 'rope' unless he thinks that's what'll get the girls attention because she's into that sort of thing.

Mileage varies I know.
boot_the_grime
Dec. 10th, 2010 11:48 pm (UTC)
I don't see it. Spike's idea of "romance" tends to involve lots of rope, beating each other up, and general slaughter... and as much kinky sex as possible.

Yeah. But at least he wasn't killing other women to bring them as a present to his beloved, which makes B/S in S6 decidedly healthier than Spike/Dru.
eowyn_315
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:16 am (UTC)
Why does he have to give her permission to do so?

Sorry, this has little to do with the discussion at hand, but I just have to take a moment to LOL at the irony of this comment on a post about consent. :)
gabrielleabelle
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:17 am (UTC)
Oh. Now you made me giggle.
eowyn_315
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:26 am (UTC)
Then my work here is done! (but I'll stick around for the show anyway *g*)
ms_scarletibis
Dec. 9th, 2010 02:36 am (UTC)
<--has no appropriate icon.

Not that I even remember where that was said in the long assed comment or what it's referring to, but yes, I can appreciate the irony ;)
blackfrancine
Dec. 9th, 2010 05:35 am (UTC)
But to say that he'll "let" her do it--you don't find that phrasing to be odd? Why not "You can blow out my candles"?

Meh. Not really. I don't see much difference in the nuance between "I'll let you" and "You can," to be honest. In the second one, it's just that Spike as the permission granter is elided--but it's still an understood implication that HE'S the one granting permission. In fact, I sort of think it's more commanding, more direct--meaning (to me) that if he says "You can"--he KNOWS that she's seeking to. With "I'll let you," it's more coy. I think the coyness is because he's joking around. But if you want to read it as completely straight, I'd say the coyness could come in as a way to seek preemptive forgiveness for asking her to do something for him.

And, realistically, there are lots of women who enjoy giving head--there's no doubt about that. But let's be serious. There are very few women who actually want to give head MORE than the guy wants to receive it. We really don't have any reason whatsoever to think that Spike is anything other than a typical guy in that regard. At least that's what I think.

if we backed things up to TR, OMWF, or hey, all the way back to the ill fated "Crush," if asked, I'm willing to bet he would have liked the opportunity to romance Buffy instead of getting fucked by her in some dilapidated building.

I agree for the most part. Or I sort of agree. I think at the beginning of s6 he was being the man that Buffy made him feel like. He was being what he believed she wanted and needed. But after things turned physical, he stopped. Why he stopped is debatable. But the fact remains, he was no longer kind or supportive (at least not in the traditional way). And he was no longer TRYING to romance her by the time they start getting down to business in Smashed. And certainly not afterwards. It seems to me like he's perfectly willing to play the love/hate games with Buffy.

But to get back to the germane issue, what I'm saying is that just because he'd have preferred a romantic seduction scene, that doesn't mean that what happened was sexual assault. HE picked the fight. HE reciprocated the making out. He never gave any indication that further advances were unwelcome. Now. As Gabs' post points out, that doesn't mean Buffy was free and clear and in the right. She wasn't. But if Spike wanted the sex (and I think he did) and he didn't feel violated (I don't think he did), then it's just blurry/implied consent--not assault.

Also, sorry if this is piling on. I haven't read all the replies yet.
ms_scarletibis
Dec. 9th, 2010 06:08 am (UTC)
Whoops--meant "Can you blow out my candles?"

But if you want to read it as completely straight, I'd say the coyness could come in as a way to seek preemptive forgiveness for asking her to do something for him.

Um...buh? Sorry, I don't get that at all.

There are very few women who actually want to give head MORE than the guy wants to receive it. We really don't have any reason whatsoever to think that Spike is anything other than a typical guy in that regard. At least that's what I think.

Yes, but there is a difference between "very few" and none ;) And I think there are a lot of things that back up that Spike is not only a typical vampire, but he isn't a typical guy either. Cause if he was, he would have blown Buffy off completely around "Gone" and found someone that was else.

Why he stopped is debatable. Why he stopped is debatable. But the fact remains, he was no longer kind or supportive (at least not in the traditional way). And he was no longer TRYING to romance her by the time they start getting down to business in Smashed. And certainly not afterwards. It seems to me like he's perfectly willing to play the love/hate games with Buffy.

Buffy wanted him to be the bad guy/a monster. *shrug* He played the games that she initiated (most of the time). That made it easier for her, and that was Spike's only interest--whatever made it easy for her (which...I hate and don't agree with). If Buffy had said that she wanted flowers and dates and Bronze hang out time with her friends, you don't think Spike would have given it to her? Honestly?

He says in "Gone," 'Cause if I can't have all of you, I'd rather-...I think it's safe to assume that the rest of that was nothing at all.

HE picked the fight.

How so? Buffy made the first punch. Is it picking a fight just because he was finally able to fight back without a splitting headache?

Also, sorry if this is piling on. I haven't read all the replies yet.

Oh, I wasn't blaming you--just myself ;)
deird1
Dec. 9th, 2010 06:19 am (UTC)
But if you want to read it as completely straight, I'd say the coyness could come in as a way to seek preemptive forgiveness for asking her to do something for him.

Um...buh? Sorry, I don't get that at all.


For instance:

"Want to come to my party?"
"No, I'm a bit busy."
"Oh, please?" *cute grin* "I'll be really nice... I'll let you give me a present and everything..."

I'm asking for them to come to my party, and also for them to give me a present, but I'm asking in a cute and disarming way, so I (hopefully) don't come across as too horribly greedy.
ms_scarletibis
Dec. 9th, 2010 06:30 am (UTC)
Ah, I see what you mean.

But since her only objection is the timing and the fact that there's a house full of people in the way, I don't think that's what was happening there.
blackfrancine
Dec. 9th, 2010 06:26 am (UTC)
Um...buh? Sorry, I don't get that at all.

Well, what I meant was that he was being coy in case she wasn't receptive. Playing it as a joke. Or as something he's shy about makes it seem less harsh. If he were to approach her at her birthday party in her house full of friends and say "Can you blow out my candles" or "Will you blow out my candles," she's gonna punch him. Because that's a dick thing to say. It's not gonna come off as joking between a couple of people in a sexual relationship--it's gonna come off as a guy demanding sexual favors in a lascivious way. Or worse--like he's asking for favors while at the same time slut shaming her for things she's done in the past.

If Buffy had said that she wanted flowers and dates and Bronze hang out time with her friends, you don't think Spike would have given it to her? Honestly?

Uh. Yes. Like I said--I DO think he'd prefer that. He wants to be a man to her. But just because he'd prefer it doesn't mean he's not pretty stoked to be the monster that she bangs in abandoned houses.

How so? Buffy made the first punch. Is it picking a fight just because he was finally able to fight back without a splitting headache?

Spike calls Buffy and tries to draw her out, and then he goes after her with the specific intention of getting into a physical confrontation with her. He KNEW he could hit her back, and he wanted to show her. So he goads Buffy until she hits him. He does that JUST so that he can hit her back. He's proving a point. And he always intended to prove that point with violence. Just because Buffy throws the first punch doesn't mean that Spike didn't start the fight. He planned it to go exactly as it did (well, up until the makeout/sex--he didn't plan that). He wanted to goad her into hitting him first so that he had a reason to hit her.
ms_scarletibis
Dec. 9th, 2010 06:35 am (UTC)
If he were to approach her at her birthday party in her house full of friends and say "Can you blow out my candles" or "Will you blow out my candles," she's gonna punch him.

Well with Buffy, it didn't take much for that to happen. Anyway, her only objection was the fact that there were lots of people in the house, and not "no" to the act itself.

But just because he'd prefer it doesn't mean he's not pretty stoked to be the monster that she bangs in abandoned houses.

Pretty stoked, or just accepting what he can get?

So he goads Buffy until she hits him. He does that JUST so that he can hit her back. He's proving a point. And he always intended to prove that point with violence. Just because Buffy throws the first punch doesn't mean that Spike didn't start the fight.

Disagree. He wasn't pissed off when he made that phone call. He seemed a little smug, but that's it. When she didn't show was when he had time to stew and be pissed off. And just because he goaded her, didn't mean that she had to hit him. "Oh, he/she was begging for it!"--that makes me uncomfortable. There is such a thing as restraint or walking away.

Then again, Buffy's way of relating "no" to Spike has always been a punch in the face, so...
deird1
Dec. 9th, 2010 06:38 am (UTC)
Since when does Spike only start fights because he's pissed off?
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis - Dec. 9th, 2010 06:40 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - deird1 - Dec. 9th, 2010 06:52 am (UTC) - Expand
blackfrancine
Dec. 9th, 2010 06:55 am (UTC)
Well with Buffy, it didn't take much for that to happen. Anyway, her only objection was the fact that there were lots of people in the house, and not "no" to the act itself.

Just because she doesn't hate giving head doesn't mean that sell a kidney to have the privilege of blowing Spike. The way I read that moment is that, no, she's not terribly put out by his suggestion (which she recognizes as jest/innuendo). And she doesn't go out of her way to insult him--but she's not kicking people out the house or sneaking into the bathroom with him either. Nor does he actually consider it a favor to her to allow her to blow him.

Pretty stoked, or just accepting what he can get?

Honestly? Both. I think he's stoked that he can get anything. At least at first. I think later, he goes back and forth, wanting more and yet not wanting to lose what he's being given by being too demanding.

But the thing that's important about that is not figuring out what Spike's ideal romantic scenario would be--it's figuring out what his lower threshold is--what he DOESN'T want. And if he's accepting sex because that's as close as he can get to what he wants--he's still accepting. Therefore it's not assault.

He wasn't pissed off when he made that phone call. He seemed a little smug, but that's it.

Right. He wasn't pissed. He had a plan. And that plan was to meet up with her and show her that he can hit her.

And just because he goaded her, didn't mean that she had to hit him. "Oh, he/she was begging for it!"--that makes me uncomfortable. There is such a thing as restraint or walking away.

I didn't say that he was begging for it. And I don't think it's okay for Buffy to hit him--but I do think that he had every intention of starting that fight and pushing Buffy until she hit him just so that he had an excuse to hit her back.
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis - Dec. 9th, 2010 07:35 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - blackfrancine - Dec. 9th, 2010 10:02 pm (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - ms_scarletibis - Dec. 10th, 2010 06:01 am (UTC) - Expand

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