9th person to take the poll and the 1st person to comment...

... that's really all I had to say :| I just didn't want there to *not* be a conversation about this. I'm very in S2 right now with the GAKS PotentialCast and so any discussion of S3 right now is out of my hemisphere.

However - I've been noting a pattern of good characters gone bad and it seems as though inclusion into the Scoobies is all *a lot* of characters seem to want. Why are the Scoobies so reluctant to new groopies?

Faith should have been included in a lot of events this season and was left out - and hey, why does she live in a seedy motel?

1. If Mr. Braniac Watcher didn't know, there's no reason to expect Faith to have known either, so yeah--not an idiot.

2. I don't see how that could have not blown up in her face. And if it wasn't a bad thing, there was no reason to keep it a secret in the first place.

3. I will probably be in the minority, but no--I didn't find Xander out of line--he was well within reason to be pissed off, even if it was just on behalf of Giles and Jenny specifically (although, Angelus did threaten his life and hurl him out of a window that one time). There was no reason to utilize kid gloves there.

4. Good idea gone bad. I can't see any of them smiling and rejoicing at Angel's/potentially Angelus' return right off the bat, and the fact that Buffy kept it a secret.

5. I voted the one in "Who Are You," but I think I meant "This Year's Girl" in the church just from an emotional impact point of view.

6. I put yes, but probably meant "unsure." She definitely should have been given a proper heads up about the situation at the very least for being the active Slayer, and also because it was a sensitive situation. Maybe not present for the intervention itself, but she should have been told...something.

2. I'm somewhat surprised how high the average score is. Not telling her friends certainly qualifies as a dumb idea, but I never saw it as particularly reprehensible.

To Buffy's knowledge, Angel was no longer dangerous and they weren't going to repeat the mistake that released Angelus in the first place, so there's no major harm in keeping his return private, at least of the time being. Additionally, Buffy was motivated by the (justified) belief that her friends wouldn't understand.

Heh. I may have misread question 2. I thought I was voting on how IRRESPONSIBLE Buffy was for not telling her friends. Not how reprehensible. I'd make it WAY lower (I gave a 7, but probably would give a 3 if I'd read it right). Whoops.

3. On Xander's response. Here's the thing. Sure, he had a right to be upset. He did not have a right to say the most cutting thing imaginable in the situation. And, really, he didn't have a right to be angry--just to be upset that Buffy was not comfortable enough to be honest with him.

Because here's the thing: Sure. You can argue that she was lying. But--heh. I wonder why she lied. The second he finds out about Angel, Xander says and does some horrible things. And Buffy had every reason (given Xander's blamey behavior in When She Was Bad and in Dead Man's Party) to believe that that was EXACTLY how he would react. And it's completely unfounded. Any mistrust of Buffy is unfounded--she killed Angel when she had to. This whole "Buffy can't think straight about Angel" stuff sells Buffy really short, in my opinion.

4. Intervention was a bad idea from the get go. It just was going to turn into a gang-up. It should have just been Giles talking to Buffy alone and finding out how she felt, and then having her talk to both Willow and Xander.

6. Faith should've known about it but not been invited. It would've saved Faith's hurt feelings (which were legit) and kept Buffy from having an extra person there who had no real right to weigh in.

User rahirah referenced to your post from No title saying: [...] by [News/Discussion/More] x. posts a poll [...]

Nobody is mentioning the most important thing about this episode. The wicked cool scene of the Glove of Mynaghon being cut off Gwendolyn Post's arm. I just liked that scene. Very exciting.

It was pretty terrible for Buffy not to tell them Angel was back after all they went through. Probably could have saved some drama if she'd been honest. Although I guess in a TV drama that's not really the goal.

1. Faith should have had a show of hands before feeling even more inadequate for not knowing about Gwen Post. Bet no one raises their hands.

2. I voted 1. I can't help it. I can't blame Buffy for keeping Angel's return a secret. He's resouled, so he's not a danger anymore, therefore absolutely no one's business unless Buffy or Angel chooses to make it their business. And it was totally possible that one of the Scoobies would be emotionally reckless enough to actually try to kill Angel...oh wait. Guess Buffy had something to worry about after all, huh?

The only thing I hold against Buffy (and Angel) is kissing...considering the previous spring, I thought it was really thoughtless of them to push the envelope like they did.

3. Xander crossed the line when he whipped Faith-the-angry-Slayer up into froth and aimed her at Angel like a gun. What exactly would he have told Buffy if Faith had succeeded? What would he have done if Buffy had been enraged enough to beat Faith into a coma? Would he have gotten his jock strap in a bunch if Buffy had found Angel-dust and skipped town again, unable to deal with his death a second time? Did Xander, for one second, think about what it would have done to his friend Buffy to go through that again?? *breathes harshly* I should have abstained from the question, since it's clear I am going to hold his actions against him for-like-ever.

4. That wasn't an intervention. That was an ambush to Shame Buffy.

5. I like the way Buffy stops Faith's downward strike right above Angel's chest - that was cool. But the Graduation fight is my fave, because the stakes were WAY higher, and both of them were dressed appropriately for the showdown. Leather. Mention the leather....

6. Faith should have been included. She's patrolling - essentially risking her life to protect that town, and she's a slayer. She should have been there, at the very least to back Buffy up (thinking about how she had Buffy's back at Homecoming with Scott Hope). Buffy could have used someone non-judgemental and maybe they could have avoided some of the damage of later on during the episode.

7. Three stars seem to be my default rating for most episodes of Buffy. I just like the clusterfuck of perceived betrayals and confrontations happening every twenty minutes, lol.

1. I don't blame Faith in the least. Gwendolyn's cover works because she really was a Watcher and knew exactly how to be. (I do cringe a little at how easily she plays Giles just by being as stuffy and British and no hard Rs as he thinks he should be.)

2. I know why she does it, and I have a lot of sympathy for her in these episodes, but it's still wrong. There was no way she was going to be able to kill him again if she had to, and...you know, he didn't, but he could easily have needed killing for any number of reasons.

3. WAY HARSH, TAI. But not wrong.

5. I think I am the only one who went with "other"! I have a soft spot for the Enemies fight.

6. Yes, even if only because there was no way she wasn't going to find out.

2. I went with an even 5. :)

4. Interventions are always a shit idea.

5. "Graduation Day" fo sho. THE LEATHER, YO.

I can't see how Faith would have known not to trust Gwendolyn Post. Post said it to throw her.

I can understand Buffy not wanting to tell her friends and family, but I think she was wrong. The last they saw of him Angel was brutally killing Jenny, torturing & kidnapping Giles, and threatening them all. Were I Giles I'd be feeling very betrayed. If a friend of mine were in a similar relationship (I mean, non metaphoric evil if you know what I mean) I'd be frustrating and upset if I found out he or she was back with the abuser.

There's no way Faith could have told that Post was a fake when Giles couldn't.

Xander definitely crossed the line when he let Faith that Angel was back as a soulless vampire. There was a very real possibility of Faith killing Angel which would result in the further estrangement of both Buffy and Faith. He doesn't even have the excuse of acting from impulse when he talks to Faith. I can get him being angry in the intervention scene because he's reacting from the Buffy-Angel kiss, but not letting getting killed.

I dislike the intervention scene, because it just felt like an argument between Buffy and Xander mostly. And also because I dislike it when Xander keeps bringing up Ms Calendar like Buffy doesn't remember her death. I understand Xander's anger in this scene, but despite what he says his final scene of this ep, it feels like he doesn't trust her.

Faith definitely should have been told, if only to avoid exactly what happened in this ep. Faith also clearly thinks that Buffy was involved in the planning of the Scooby meeting and believes she was excluding her when Buffy didn't know anything about the intervention. Just an interesting development between Buffy and Faith.

On 2, I think Buffy had an obligation to tell Giles about Angel because something mysterious and mystical was obviously going on, and he's her Watcher and needs to know about that. Buffy killed Angel, sent him to hell, so the fact that he's back as good as new is inexpicable and therefore potentially dangerous.

Xander trying to manipulate Faith into killing a souled person was conspiracy to commit murder, in my frank opinion.

My favourite Buffy-Faith confrontation scene overall is 'Who Are You?', but that's because Faith's dialogue beforehand ("The one and only" and "Because it's wrong") gives me shivers, and because I love their reactions after the fight is over. But purely looking at it in terms of fight scenes, and fight choreography and so on, 'Graduation Day' is the best. I've used it in several vids. :-)

I put 'not sure' for 6 because I can understand not including her - she doesn't know Angel, she wasn't around in season 2 - but on the other hand, it's just one more brick in the wall of not including her, and telling her she's second best or an afterthought. The scene in this episode that really hurts is when Faith's been telling Buffy about her previous loser boyfriends, and she asks Buffy to share some of her own life - and Buffy just clams up. It's not really her fault, she's got a lot of Angel issues at the moment, but you can just see the light dying in Faith's eyes as she shrugs "Whatever" and changes the subject.

It's like, that right there was the moment that could have got through to Faith; she was actually opening up and being ready to share something real with Buffy, but Buffy fumbles the moment and Faith's armour comes crashing back down into place again, and the path to their fight in 'Graduation Day' begins right there.

Me, me, me... it's all about what I think! (As opposed to what I know, which ain't much.)


http://harsens-rob.livejournal.com/223483.html

1) I don't think she's dumb. I think she wanted attention and love.

2) I understand why Buffy hid Angel, but her friends had the right to know he's alive. Angel wasn't just after her last year, he was after all of them and managed to really hurt one of them (Giles). IMO, it was their call as much as Buffy's, because their life was in the line.

3) Xander had every right to be upset/angry/furious. Not only did he see Angel alive, but he saw Buffy kissing him. After everything Angel had done to them last year? That looked like a betrayal from his prospective.

However, I think his hurt, angry feelings toward Buffy blinded him completely. He knew Angel didn't hurt Giles, tried to tell Faith that, but when Buffy showed up he implied that Angel hurt Giles. I don't think it's about killing Angel as much as hurting Buffy, which is way worse in my book.

4) I think Giles should have talked to her alone, and then have her talk with the others. Jumping on her like that was really bad.

5) Meh. The last thing I care about in this show is fights. I'm mostly interested in the Buffy/Xander/Willow drama.

6) Yes.

Hi,

a long one this time, because utterly philosophically fascinating ep.

~ 1. Absolutley not! Faith is in dire need of someone; anyone, to trust, and is beginning to believe in these people; they believe her, even if nobody likes her. Why wouldn't she trust her?

~ 2. I gave it a 6 here. She should've told them; she was being very selfish, but understandably. Can't imagine the confusion if someone I loved had returned from the dead; let alone if I'd had to kill them! But she displayed an alarming lack of trust in them; especially as the last time they'd seen him he'd been trying to kill them all.

~ 3. I agree with you in that in setting Faith onto Angel the way he did Xander crossed a line; not that he hadn't in Becoming Pt.II anyway, but even though he over-reacted a bit, his reaction was as understandable's as Buffy's in not going straight to them when she became aware of Angels' return.

~ 4. I'm probably displaying huge cultural prejudice here but this idea of 'The Intervention' has always seemed a bad one; at least from what I've seen in my only experiences of it - so probably not what is supposed to happen :-)

More seriously, the only ones who even remotely seem to have a straight head on are Giles & Angel, so even if an intervention was called for, doing it under the emotionally super-charged circumstances that they tried it - Doomed with a capital "D".

~5. I didn't like seeing them fight actually; but if I had to pick a fight to re-watch it has to be the two-part epic from Faith's return in S4; right at the end of each ep too. Absolute classics, especially since, up to that point, the only fights between women onscreen had pretty much been of the pulling-hair & eye-scratching variety, and designed to make the women look stupid; and I did see them before I saw the fight in Revelations.

~6. Can't help but see her own low self-image as being confirmed by almost everything that happens in this episode; some of it her fault, but what the hell is Giles thinking not including the OFFICIAL Slayer in the discussions. You could use the understandable card, but he was supposed to her watcher; and should've been trying to work in concert with her new watcher.

~7. Give it a 4, because of Gwendolyne Post mostly; can we say woodenly overacted cultural sterotype? Everyone else does pretty well, even DB, who I'm not known for being a fan of until he turns up on Bones. In terms of characters actually Angel & Faith are the only ones who come up out of this one well, with 'ol Rupes not that far behind. Hard to judge Cordy as they seemed to be turning her back into a joke character by this point.

But Gwendolyne Post has to be a serious candidate for lamest villain in the entire show.

Phew! must be feeling chatty today; never a good sign :-)

Still under Willow & Tara's spell,
Ray.

Hello - new person here. I saw this on the newsletter and just stopped by. My thoughts - all this just IMHO. :)

1. Faith wasn't an idiot, and that was just a vindictive twisting of the knife on Ms Post's part. I really feel bad for Faith here.

2. I went with a 2. I'm all too sympathetic to Buffy here. She should have told them, yeah. Especially Giles. But it's too easy for me to see why she didn't. Especially after how everyone treated her in Dead Man's Party (that made me furious). I can only imagine her fears about their reactions - what were they going to do? Demand she kill him again? I doubt she could even deal with that thought. Killing Angelus might be one thing, but killing a re-souled Angel, again.... And telling Giles, after all Angelus did to him...normally Giles would probably be her first confidant for weird scooby-related stuff, but she probably feared his reaction more than any of the others.

That being said, they shouldn't have been kissing again, and they were found out in the worst way possible, by the worst person possible. Which leads us to question #3.

3. I have absolutely zero patience for Xander's attitude in this episode. And really for Xander's Angel-hate (and later Spike-hate) in general. He was way way out of line IMO. Yeah, I'm sure it was a shock. But still. I thought his attacks in the library were totally uncalled for, not to mention his siccing Faith on Angel, which reads as pure vindictive hatred to me.

4. The intervention was a bad bad idea, and seemed to be nothing more than a thinly veiled excuse for them all to dump on Buffy. Someone needed to talk to her, definitely. But not like that. Yeah, Buffy made a mistake. She is, after all, only a 17 year old girl, who, let's not forget, has recently gone through some pretty major trauma. Some mistakes in judgement are understandable IMO.

6. No, I don't think Faith should have been included in the intervention, but I don't think they should have had the intervention in the first place. ;)

1. Nah, not an idiot. Gwen was *good*.

2. I said 8. The smoochies are part of what make everything so much worse.

3. I'm pretty much completely on board until he wants to go with Faith to kill Angel. And then, less so. It's a shame, because it implicitly revokes his reasons for being right earlier in the episode. It's very, very complex.

4. Good idea gone bad. Well maybe not a good idea. But what else are they supposed to do? They needed to try to get through to Buffy that harbouring Angel away from them was bad news.

5. Graduation Day.

6. Not sure. On the one hand, Faith as the other slayer is the only other person who could reasonably be called upon to fight Angel should he go evil; she should have been informed. But it's a tricky emotional situation to navigate and Faith simply doesn't have most of that history.

7. Five stars.