But the thing is, you are trying to say objectively that Robin is an unappealing character. Which is your opinion, and that's great. But this is fandom and there is no objective evaluation of a character. You think Holtz is interesting. I find him boring as all get-out. What one person thinks, another will think the complete opposite. That's why fandom's always at war.

Personally, I think Xander's a boring character and I don't see the point of ficcing him. However, I wouldn't try to argue that he definitively is boring, and I realize that other people will have different views. So just because Xander doesn't rock my boat, I know that other people in fandom will latch onto him. If they don't, I'm gonna think something weird's going on, despite my lack of interest in the guy.

I mean, you have to understand what it sounds like when the original commenter is positing aversive racism and you reply that, no, he's just a poorly-written character. The very perception of the latter may well be a symptom of the former on a fandom-wide scale.

I am? I thought I was going out of my way to say that I don't find him interesting, this is my opinion, but that others might share my point of view.

You're using your opinion of Robin Wood as an uninteresting character to explain why nobody writes about him. I'm saying that's not a valid explanation because of the wide variance of opinions in fandom.

Well, what does it sound like when someone says, "Maybe it's because Wood isn't white," without, I dunno, posting an LJ poll or asking people why they write certain characters over others

You're free to ask or poll over it.

With aversive racism, though, the point is that the attitude isn't on a conscious level. For instance, there was an experiment wherein employers where presented with various resumes for job applicants. Some were given a resume that had a African American-style name on it. Others were given the exact same resume but with a more generic name. The people given the resume coded as African American consistently rated those applicants as less desirable.

Now if you asked those employers why they did so, they wouldn't say "Because the applicant's black". They probably didn't even consciously think about it. However, racist societal attitudes seep into our instinctive thought processes. That's aversive racism.

So a poll would be next to useless considering nobody's gonna up and say, "It's because he's black". However, it's a logical conclusion to come to considering how little attention he and other characters of color get relative to white characters (Kendra, Forrest, and Trick are all likewise ignored in fandom).

I'm using my opinion to explain that it's a possible reason why nobody writes about him.

I understand. And I've explained why that doesn't fly as a possible reason.

And I really don't think the Spuffy factor can be overlooked

I'd agree there. Though I don't think that that explanation is mutually exclusive with the racial explanation (especially when you look at the larger pattern of the other characters of colors likewise getting little play in fandom). After all, even Riley gets a lot of attention from Spuffy writers, even if in a bashing context. Robin doesn't even appear as an antagonist in S7 Spuffy fics.

Also, I'm uncomfortable diverting attention away from the racial issue in order to settle into what must be a more "comfortable" explanation.

Oh, and do you have any fic recs? Genuine question. I've been desperately looking for fics with him in a semi-substantial role for a while now.

Edited at 2010-03-22 05:31 pm (UTC)

Not adequately, in my point of view. I honestly don't understand why, "Maybe people just aren't interested in his character," can't be a possible reason.

"People just aren't interested" =/= "He isn't an interesting character". And the rationale behind why people don't find him interesting is what's up for discussion.

Yes, THAT has been my intention all along. Well spotted. I've ranted about the racially insensitive image of three African men demon-raping a little white girl in "Get it Done" for, oh, seven years since the episode first aired, but really I'm all about the explanation that's the most "comfortable."

Not sure how to respond to this except to tell you that this discussion isn't about you, so it's probably best not to take it so personally. I'm not making accusations of anything. Just pointing out that having a discussion on race get derailed into a safer area of conversation makes me uneasy.

The original post was not a discussion on race, yes, however the comment you initially replied to was, so it stands to reason that any ensuing conversation would be related to the racial issue. If you had wanted to speak to my post, specifically, starting a new comment thread would have been most appropriate. Otherwise it does seem as if the intent is to divert attention and credibility away from the racial issue or even to disagree with it as an explanation.

Now I have to ask, is any possible reason other than "it's a racial issue" going to be accepted, or are they all going to be dismissed as the "safer" explanations?

Well, I did say the Spuffy fan explanation has merit, though I gotta say, that doesn't cancel out the racial explanation. It's likely that there are several factors at work.

Eh, I think it's useful to point out the elephant in the room when it comes to the "why" of people not ficcing Robin Wood.

Obviously, short of doing an Havard-style implicit association test in relation to Wood, we can't tell for certain one way or another. I don't think it's "unfair" to point out that race plays a huge factor in society today and that fandom often shows the effects of it. If people are made uncomfortable by having it pointed out, then...well, sucks for them.

As you pointed out, lack of fic devoted to a character suggests lack of interest. So the next question is why are characters of color consistently not interesting to the bulk of fandom? Especially in lieu of what random (white) characters fandom often does show an interest in. With one character, it could be a fluke. With many, you have a pattern where the common denominator is race. In that case, it's not unreasonable to conclude that some amount of aversive racism is coming into play.

Frankly, I think it would be more relevant to talk about why there are so few characters of color on Joss's shows in the first place.

That is another useful discussion, of course. However, I wouldn't say it's "more relevant" when the topic under discussion is "Why isn't Robin Wood written about more?"

It's hard to say. Just going by my perception (which is probably completely unreliable), Gunn gets more fic about him than, say, Lorne. But much less than Angel or Wesley. I actually thought Wes/Gunn would be a more popular slash pairing (as well as Angel/Gunn), but apparently Angel/Wesley is the big "thing" in AtS (along with Angel/Lindsay).