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Well, [info]snickfic, I finally did it. :)

We all know Spike's an interesting character. But let me get meta, because he's not only interesting in the bounds of the show, but he's interesting in terms of the complications he presented to the writers.

Cause in S4, he becomes a regular. They made a former antagonist into a regular. In fact, a former Big Bad. And, unlike Angel, he wasn't all souled up and trying to fight on the side of the Good. He was still evil.

That's not an easy task. Because having an evil antagonist on the cast will typically lead to dumb storylines where he gets defeated every week but not quite killed. Eventually he descends into buffoonery. People, rightfully, wonder why he's even sticking around. He becomes a caricature. Like a cartoon villain that pops in every week just to be defeated.

No, really. Try to think of Glory being on the cast in, say, S3. The season arc isn't about her, but she shows up in every episode anyway just to satisfy the contract.

Not appealing.



So the writers added in a twist: the chip. They couldn't have Spike play the role of the full antagonist anymore. That just doesn't work when he has to be in every episode. Instead, they had to start working on integrating him into the cast. And the quickest way to do that is to defang him. Make him not an immediate threat.

Suddenly, we get a whole world of possibilities with Spike's character. Moral questions: Should Spike be staked now that he's defenseless? Thematic quandaries: If Spike is an outcast from the demon community, can he fit in with the Scoobies? Does he want to? Do they want him to? And tying everything into the main arc: Adam offers Spike a new niche. Can Spike still be evil with the chip?

S4 handles all of these adeptly. Spike's ostracism from his former group fits well with the thematic arc of the season. His eventual alliance with Adam reminds us that the chip may hold him back physically, but it doesn't stop the compulsion to be evil. And his early alliance with the Scoobies forms the ties that will make him an eventual peripheral member of the gang.

Spike retains his evilness in S4. At the same time, his character is allowed to change and go through trials of his own. Is the chip a plot device? Of course. But it's an effective device in ensuring Spike's place as a cast member. Without it, Buffy, frankly, would have had to kill him before the end of the season.

S5 presents new difficulties, though. We've already had it demonstrated that Spike can still be evil. Where to go from there, though? Static characters are boring. Spike in S5 could easily become a cardboard cut-out of a character, forever complaining about the chip and being compelled by outside forces into mingling with the plot.

They can't have Spike struggle with his place as a demon in S5. They did that last season. They can't use the season to demonstrate that Spike's still a demon. Again, it had been done. A new direction had to be taken.

So Spike fell in love with Buffy.

It's one of those retcons that makes so much sense, it honestly doesn't bother me at all. They took advantage of Spike's passion and already-established romantic nature, mixed it with his Slayer-killing reputation, and started up the Spuffy.

Suddenly, Spike's arc takes a whole new path. Instead of figuring out how to still be evil with a chip, Spike is trying to figure out how to get Buffy's attention. How to be Good so that she'll notice him.

His attempts are often-juvenile. And we, again, are introduced to a host of interesting questions. Can you love without a soul? Can a soulless creature do Good without being Good? Is this love sufficient to bring him into the Scoobies?

Throughout the season, we see Spike resort to chocolates and cattle prods to try to convince Buffy of his feelings. In the end, it takes being tortured by a hellgod to get some respect from her, and to be accepted by her into the group.

By the end of S5, we have Spike, the antagonist and former Big Bad, working with the Scoobies to save the world. Two seasons after his introduction as a cast member. This journey could easily have come out contrived. It could be unbelievable. Possible missteps were everywhere. But the writers ultimately handled it deftly and used the opportunity of Spike-as-cast-member to flesh out his character, develop it, and allow it to move forward.

S6 is something of the natural climax of Spike's story. He's become one of the team. He's done undeniably Good deeds. And yet...still a vampire. Still with no soul.

Where do you go from there?

His position as one of the peripheral Scooby members marks him as available for Buffy to use to get out her post-resurrection angst. In the meantime, as Buffy, his guiding light, falters, so does he. We see a regression, almost, of Spike. No longer spouting pure intentions as he did in S5, he takes advantage of Buffy's dark period to relate to her with his own darkness.

In some ways, it's not so much a regression but an opportunity to show us the demon side that still exists in Spike (as seen in S4). Good intentions can't get rid of that.

This all has the controversial culmination in the AR scene which has the effect of showing that despite the progress he had made - the chip, the love, the Good deeds - he's still a demon. And when unchecked, as it was with Buffy, he's still capable of doing Evil, even to the one person he'd never want to hurt.

Finally, we get to the soul. The staple of the Buffyverse to make vampires safe. In some ways, this turn of events could be seen as inevitable from the time he joined the cast in S4. Spike's struggles to be Good reflect the struggles the writers have to bring him into the cast, integrate him into the gang, justify having an antagonist as a regular character.

It's not an easy line to walk.

For a long time, S6 bothered me. I was caught up in what the writers meant with what they were doing. In S5, it seemed clear to me that I was supposed to view Spike sympathetically. We were shown his struggles. We were shown his point of view. We were shown his backstory. And we saw his eventual triumph and his final status as comrade. I took it as a sign that the writers wanted me to root for this guy.

S6 seemed like a betrayal, in many ways. Especially the AR. It seemed as if, suddenly, I was being told I was wrong. I felt the writers had sabotaged their own attempt at characterization in an effort to "prove" to me that Spike was still evil. The message in the AR seemed clear: "You stupid fangirl! See how evil your character is?"

This bothered me greatly. I resent being manipulated. I resent being shown such a sympathetic character in S5 and then being slapped upside the head in S6 when I actually sympathize with him.

Time passed, though, and, as things do, the show took on a different light. I know there was backfighting among the writers. I know there was drama going on there. But I realized that it didn't matter. Because the show they gave us can be taken independently of any of that. And Spike's arc, even up through S6, suddenly worked for me.

I stopped worrying about what the writers had wanted me to think. I stopped feeling insulted by the seeming betrayal of S6. Instead, I viewed it as a natural progression of the Spike character. I took the series in a vacuum, devoid of whatever motivations the writers may have had for it. And, to my surprise, the story worked. Even when the underdog Spike reveals the depths of his demon in S6.

Because Spike's story isn't one of love changing him from Evil to Good. It's a story about Spike changing himself from Evil to Good. Because of love, yes. But love alone can't do the trick, as we see in S6. There's more needed.

Spike's character is an oddity. Brought on as a regular despite the difficulties of having a former Big Bad on the cast. His character journey is so well-done, so poignant. And yet, it's all a result of the complications that come from his antagonist status. How to integrate him into the show. In some ways, these difficulties made the character who he is.

It also made him controversial. For how he challenged the mythology. Not even the writers agreed on his character. And watching the show with the view that the events onscreen are "messages" from the writer to the audience is an unpleasant experience.

That's not what the show is, though. It isn't a vehicle for telling us what to think of the characters. It's a vehicle to tell a story. The writers may have wanted to get a message across. Very rarely is this so transparently done that it confuses the natural story, though (AYW is a good example of this done all wrong).

I've reached the point that, barring a few exceptions where it is frightfully transparent, what the writers may have wanted me to think doesn't matter. Because ignoring all that - the backstage drama, the dumbass comments by various writers - and just watching the show as it is...it all works. It's painful sometimes. It's not easy to watch all the time. But it works. And Spike's arc is magnificent.

Or...if you really want to live by what the writers think, go by what Joss has to say:

TV's like whitewater rafting: Without rocks, there wouldn't be rapids, and it wouldn't be as much fun. ... [Rolling with it] gave us Spike falling in love with Buffy. ... You plan your ideas and themes, and then you let the rest form naturally, and then it feels real. It doesn't feel like you're imposing something on everybody. -- Joss Whedon (The Salon, 5-03) - Thanks to [info]enisy for gathering



Comments

( 48 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]deird1 wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 07:45 pm (UTC)
Huh. I'm used to disagreeing with you about all things Spikeish in the later seasons...

But here? Nothing but agreement. Totally.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:22 pm (UTC)
Do we disagree that much on late-season Spike? Huh.

Ah well. As long as we can agree on this. :)
[info]deird1 wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:29 pm (UTC)
Well, not about the fact that he's awesome...

It's more the specific little bits - that I always read and go "Wow. I never would have thought of it that way."
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:40 pm (UTC)
*g* Yeah, my thoughts can go to odd places at times.
[info]lavastar wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 07:46 pm (UTC)
Oh, man, how is it that your meta is always so insightful and interesting, huh? Doesn't seem right.

Anyway - yeah, that made sense. I'm gonna leave it at that. :)
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:22 pm (UTC)
Oh, man, how is it that your meta is always so insightful and interesting, huh?

Long, arduous hours of practice. :)
[info]gillo wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:28 pm (UTC)
Yes. I think the writers made themselves a world of problems by allowing us to see Spike fighting for the Good in S5 and allowing us to sympathise with him, particularly in
Intervention
and
The Gift
. And Teh Secks in S6 was so hot that it made it way too easy to overlook the fact that Spike was holding Buffy down in her bad place. And Riley's return as a plot device was pretty crass, which also made viewers root for Spike - the "Doctor" thing just lacked plausibility.

The AR is a huge problem too, partly because JM acted desperation so well, partly because Buffy as fragile victim of brutal rapist just doesn't ring true. So even after that it is easy to sympathise with him. The range of physical torment they put him through in the remaining episodes of S6 come across too much as penance and atonement, even before the soul is restored. If they'd told JM a bit more about what they planned, he might have been nastier then, to contrast with the soul-getting. But he gave us what we got, a character who by that time was hard not to love despite his evil, and to become an apologist for, whatever he did. A human boyfriend having it away with Anya in the shop would have been much harder for the audience to accept, ironically.

[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:44 pm (UTC)
The AR...wow, my opinion on that has been all over the map. I think I've settled on a view, though, and I plain don't like it. I think it's irresponsible to use an attempted rape as a plot device in such a way. I hate the effort they went into portraying Buffy as victimized. And I hate that the AR, as presented, leads one to rape apologist arguments in order to accept it (Because Spike being a soulless vampire completely changes the dynamic from that of him being an ordinary human doing that. We can forgive the former. We - or I - wouldn't be able to forgive the latter). I think it was poor judgment on their part to put it in there.

Still, the way it was done, wasn't OOC in any way. So I just kinda try not to think about it too much and take it for what it was in context: a way to motivate Spike to get his soul.
[info]elisi wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:31 pm (UTC)
I took the series in a vacuum, devoid of whatever motivations the writers may have had for it. And, to my surprise, the story worked.
You know, I think that's why none of the problems have ever bothered me... I watched the show in a vacuum, and as such just took the story for what it was. By the time I discovered fandom (post-S7), no writer's intent or fannish bickering could in any way make a dent in the show I loved. :)
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:45 pm (UTC)
Unfortunately, even though I came to the show late, I was reading fannish reviews and discussions on it while I was watching it the first time. So going through S6, I was well aware of the controversy going on at the time it aired.

But, hey, I've changed a lot of my opinions on the show between then and now. First impressions...not always as lasting as you'd think. :)
[info]deird1 wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 08:49 pm (UTC)
Ditto.
[info]angearia wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:57 am (UTC)
Tritto.
[info]ladyofthelog wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 07:30 am (UTC)
Same!
[info]eowyn_315 wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 09:05 pm (UTC)
I like your thoughts.

Like [info]elisi said, I watched the show in a vacuum, so my first impressions were completely devoid of writer's intent or bickering. I didn't have many deep thoughts about the show, though, and pretty much just loved it wholesale for its general aura of awesomeness.

Once I got into fandom, all that outside influencey stuff affected my opinions, as did the views of other fans - but the longer I stick around, my opinions keep changing (to be honest, sometimes a good meta is all it takes to reverse my opinion), so I'd say even my second impressions have been abandoned at this point.

In some ways, I kind of miss my unblemished love of the show (ah, those were simpler times), but I also greatly appreciate the deep thoughts that have come from fandom, so it's a trade-off.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 11:32 pm (UTC)
Heh. It's odd because I still look around at the old fannish kerfuffles and all, but it doesn't have as much of an effect on my as it once did. When I first watched the series, I was so horribly emotionally invested in it, I was hyper-sensitive to anything I read in reaction to the series. I'm kinda glad I waited a while before actually entering fandom, because I think I was way too attached to the show at first to be able to discuss it rationally.

Now, I can look at the past shipper and Spike Wars with some detachment because I think I'm more settled with my view of the show. Yeah, my opinion can still be changed (and often is). But people having other opinions doesn't leave me feeling all rage-y flail-y.

But I think I prefer the point I've reached now. Because being able to read a variety of different views gives me a greater appreciation for the show. And I still feel it on an emotional level (Hell, I've been dawdling on starting up S6 because I know that season still gets to me).
[info]shapinglight wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 09:05 pm (UTC)
I think my journey with the character of Spike is similar to yours, though like you, I think using the AR as a plot device, though it works in context, was very irresponsible and asking way too much of the audience.

Have to admit, though, there is one place left where I cling to writer interpretation of the murky facts, and that's in Spike's motivation for getting a soul, because it's not clear. Okay, so there is enough subtext/hints there for one to say that, yes, he always wanted a soul, but there's also enough for one to believe he had been tricked, and to me, it's absolutely imperative that the AR should make him feel remorse.

I wanted it to be crystal clear and am glad that Joss/Jane/Fury etc emphatically endorse that he always knew what he was asking for.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 11:34 pm (UTC)
Definitely. I really dislike how they executed the mislead there. Hell, I don't think they should have had a mislead at all. The motivation is far too important to jerk us around like that on. So...yeah, I do use the author's intent as a trump card there. That just means that I'm a big ol' hypocrite sometimes. :)
[info]angearia wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:01 am (UTC)
I think it's something that writers fall into - making their story too complex and twisty. I do that, too, and it often undercuts the emotional power of a moment where what's needed most is simplicity to lend it the air of EPIC. Looking back now, we can clearly see how it would have been better without the mislead, but I can understand how in the writer's room they went "and wouldn't it be cool if people thought he was getting the chip out but really he's off to fight for his soul? Yeah, man, that'd be cool!" *highfives*

Oh, Joss.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:43 pm (UTC)
Very true. The story can look different from the up-close perspective of a writer. They're always trying to think of twists or "different" things to do to add flare. Stuff that seems okay when you're immersed in edits and story-planning but which just seems dumb when you're actually watching it.
[info]snickfic wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 10:38 pm (UTC)
Yay, meta!

His character journey is so well-done, so poignant. And yet, it's all a result of the complications that come from his antagonist status. How to integrate him into the show. In some ways, these difficulties made the character who he is.

Indeed. This is, I suspect, one of the reasons he works so very well as a character: because he was unexpected, unplanned-for, and yet the writers (and JM) were flexible and versatile enough to take all the external complications and make them something more.

Also, sometime I want to sit down and watch one Spike ep per season, starting with "School Hard," just to take in all in one sitting how much he changed over six seasons. *trembles with fangirlish squee*
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 11:36 pm (UTC)
I imagine that's why he appeals to such a large number of people. Spike goes through so much variation, he's bound to go through some "stage" that people will like. Whether it's evil!S2!Spike or souled!sensitive!S7!Spike or funny!goofy!S4!Spike or all of the above. He goes through the most significant change in the show.
[info]angearia wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:03 am (UTC)
I'm a fan of all the Spikes, though, simply because of the range of his character. He's the Renaissance vampire. :)
[info]ohwaluvusbab wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 10:50 pm (UTC)
Because Spike's story isn't one of love changing him from Evil to Good. It's a story about Spike changing himself from Evil to Good.

THIS.

*fangirls*

I watched the entire show in a vacuum, finishing S6 & 7 in maybe 2-3 weeks. Therefore, I was always able to enjoy where the story was taking me without people telling me that I, well, shouldn't.

I do agree that the AR was an extremely irresponsible plot device. It works just fine for Spike's story, and looking at it from that angle, I very much appreciate that it had to happen. The real problem, like you said, is the victimisation of Buffy. And the whole execution of the scene doesn't work for me either.

Anyhow, I'm glad to see a positive meta about Spike's character arc. I will never understand those people who are of the belief that it was 'fangirl-service'. Uh huh. Yeah.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 17th, 2009 11:38 pm (UTC)
A lot of the complaints about Spike's character truly baffle me. That he was "woobified" or became two-dimensional or that he took over the show or whatnot. Cause...I just can't see it. If you ignore all the various fan and writer commentary that goes on and just look at the show as it is, his character arc is damned good. Well-done and realistic and touching and triumphant.

But apparently, anything other than keeping Spike exactly as he was in S2 is catering to deluded fangirls or something. Cause we all know that characters should always remain the same for years on end. *nods*
[info]ohwaluvusbab wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 01:18 am (UTC)
I think people's problem with Spike is that he became too *real* after S4. James Marsters did too good a job playing him as 'the coolest guy on earth', so after that, it's like the spell was rudely broken; when in fact, the whole *point* of Spike's character is that he is a fake. If anything, Spike's journey to redeem himself is like a search for authenticity/identity. Or, as he would put it, to go after what's 'real'.

But evidently, many people don't want 'real'. Let's face it, the 'Spike' persona is far more attractive than the actual emotional wreckage ;)
[info]penny_lane_42 wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 04:58 am (UTC)
when in fact, the whole *point* of Spike's character is that he is a fake. THIS THIS THIS. Gah, I'm so glad you said this! Because to me, "Fool for Love" is basically Spike's story in microcosm. You get to watch him building himself, piece by piece, in both his mind and in the way he presents himself to the world. And then Buffy says three little words, and you realize he's at exactly the same place he started from. He's still a loser. He's who he's always been.

And then at the end, he decides that's not good enough, and we see him fight his own nature, put down that gun, and have this moment of pure connection with Buffy. It's so beautiful. And so representative of where he's going to go over the next two and a half seasons.

But the people who say that Spike was too cool? I've read essays that basically argue that Spike wasn't enough of a loser and that the show had always been about losers, and I just want to shake the writer and yell, "Spike's the biggest loser in the history of the show! And that's what's so awesome about him!"

Grrr. People.

Edited at 2009-10-18 05:03 am (UTC)
[info]ohwaluvusbab wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:09 am (UTC)
"Spike's the biggest loser in the history of the show! And that's what's so awesome about him!"

HAH! WORD! XD

On a show about outsiders, Spike is the ultimate outsider. I mean, they designed him as a punk, for crying out loud.

ppl are weird
[info]penny_lane_42 wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:22 pm (UTC)
On a show about outsiders, Spike is the ultimate outsider. Exactly. I've always found it the height of irony that people--the writers, the characters within the show, and even the average viewer--don't really get that.
[info]ohwaluvusbab wrote:
Oct. 19th, 2009 08:52 am (UTC)
It is strange indeed. Especially since when watching the show by myself, I always honestly thought Spike was the easiest out of all the characters to get/understand. And then I come online and see so many different and radical interpretations of him that make me think I was watching a different show. I'm then forced to conclude that Spike must not actually be an easy character to 'get' after all.

I think Spike, out of all the characters, is the ultimate target for people's personal projections, which accounts for the wide array of interpretations ranging from Saint Spike to Evil Incarnate. Because there are so many facets to the character, it's easy for people to ignore the parts they don't want and twist him into whatever they want to think he is. Sort of life imitating art, really.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:48 pm (UTC)
Because to me, "Fool for Love" is basically Spike's story in microcosm.

Yes! Yes! Yes! *falls over from the force of the agreement*

Seriously, I think I've used that exact phrase to describe FFL. It's why I adore it. It lays out his past and gives us indication of where his story will go. Him deciding to try to comfort Buffy, turning from the path he'd gone down so many years ago. *loves on FFL*

"Spike's the biggest loser in the history of the show! And that's what's so awesome about him!"

Yes! Again!

Seriously, the point is that Spike isn't that cool. It's his image. Like a Chihuahua trying to convince people it's a Really Big Dog.
[info]penny_lane_42 wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:23 pm (UTC)
Like a Chihuahua trying to convince people it's a Really Big Dog. *falls over laughing* YES! That's exactly what it's like!
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:45 pm (UTC)
Oh, very astute. And very true. Hell, even JM didn't like Spike's backstory at first. He was expecting William to be the Baddest of the Bad, and he was disappointed when he turned out to be a dork.

However, that squishy center is what attracts most Spike fans. Obviously, we love the crispy, snarky exterior, as well. But it's the combo of the two that makes Spike so appealing.
[info]penny_lane_42 wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:02 am (UTC)
Looking back over the show, it seems to me like Spike's journey is written in the only way it could possibly be, and it's awesome. Like most people, I have some trouble with the execution of the AR scene and with the jerking us around of the "what's he gone to Africa for?" question that was completely unnecessary. But overall, I just love his journey so, so much. For all the reasons you mentioned.

And there's this beautiful tension present: the fact that from a meta perspective, this is really the only way his story could have gone contrasts so powerfully with the fact that, for Spike himself, he could have gone a thousand different directions, but he chose the hard decisions. He chose to choose. Gah. I love that so much.

Haters be damned. ;)
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:50 pm (UTC)
A million times yes. His arc just fascinates me. It goes through so many twisty turns. So much difficulty. So many backward steps. And then finally coming through in the end. I'm usually not a big fan of redemption stories because I tend to find them boring (Angel's, for instance, makes me yawn). Spike's, though, is so unique and damned murky...it makes me want to sit down and analyze it. Which I do. :)
[info]penny_lane_42 wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:27 pm (UTC)
I love redemption stories when they're done well, and I have since reading Chronicles of Narnia as a little girl and loveloveloving Edmund and Eustace. But yeah, Angel's was never that compelling for me for reasons you can no doubt name. Even within well-done redemption stories, though, Spike's stands out as being particularly fascinating. His is probably my favorite redemption story ever.
[info]angearia wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:07 am (UTC)
Yay for insightful meta and discussion! It's been so quiet in fandom the past few days that it was delightful to read this.

And simply yes, yes I agree.

Or...if you really want to live by what the writers think, go by what Joss has to say:

I find that this is often the answer for me, either to bolster my point or help guide judgment regarding BtVS. :)
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:51 pm (UTC)
It has been quiet in fandom. I was wondering what was up with that. Somebody needs to post on the AR. That'll liven things up.
[info]gwtwscarlett wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 08:42 am (UTC)
I haven't been here for a while, but a wonderful post again.

The "Spike changing because he realizes he has to, not because of love" is really one of the things that makes Spuffy more interesting than your usual "bad guy cured by a Mary Sue's magical vagina" story. They so easily could have been the cheesiest couple in the world.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:53 pm (UTC)
*falls over laughing* Magical vagina! Hee.

Yeah, I'm typically not a fan of those "bad boy turns good through love" stories. Spuffy is an interesting twist, though, because his love for Buffy isn't enough to change Spike. It requires him to make the decision to change himself. That's a key difference that makes the dynamic so much more interesting to me.
[info]penny_lane_42 wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:31 pm (UTC)
I'm just interrupting discussions all over this thread, but I wanted to agree vehemently with this:

Spuffy is an interesting twist, though, because his love for Buffy isn't enough to change Spike. It requires him to make the decision to change himself.

This is why I hate the perception of their relationship as just the typical love-redeems trope and of Spike/Spuffy fans as just loving the bad boy. (Like all those people who think that if you ship Spuffy/love Spike post-AR that there's something wrong with you. It drives me crazy the way they just don't get it!)

Because I'm very, very opposed to the "love of a good woman redeeming a bad boy" trope, and I think there are so many women who get into horrible situations because they've bought into the belief that they can change a man. People do change, but they have to make that decision on their own. Love and any form of supportive relationship can help--a lot--but no one is ever going to save someone else. It isn't possible.

Sorry. This is just one of my personal hobby-horses.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 06:50 pm (UTC)
Oh definitely. I think the whole "bad boy turns good through love" trope is harmful, especially given how common it is. That's why I like to think that Buffy didn't fall in love with Spike until after he'd changed himself. He had to prove that he was willing to change for her as opposed to her falling for him in the hopes she could change him. She couldn't. That's something that Spike had to do.
[info]gwtwscarlett wrote:
Oct. 20th, 2009 06:32 pm (UTC)
Ah, you are so right about people being in danger for this stupid belief.

Was Spike's love for Buffy true? Yes.
Was Spike a soulless demon at the same time? Hell yeah.

Expecting to be healed and happy by love is one of the worst things that can happen to anyone.
[info]riccadonna wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 12:34 pm (UTC)
No comments, just here to say that I enjoyed the discussion.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:54 pm (UTC)
:)
[info]madeelly wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 04:14 pm (UTC)
This is great and very insightful. I totally agree.
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 18th, 2009 05:55 pm (UTC)
Thanks for reading! :)
[info]pfeifferpack wrote:
Oct. 23rd, 2009 11:34 pm (UTC)
Not one word of the fabulous meta or the many comments would I disagree with in any way. Excellent summation of a character so multi-faceted and interesting that conversations could continue for a vampires lifetime and not cover it all. LOL

Excellent (putting in my memories for re-reading).
Kathleen
[info]gabrielleabelle wrote:
Oct. 24th, 2009 02:01 am (UTC)
Glad you enjoyed it! :)
( 48 comments — Leave a comment )

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[info]gabrielleabelle
The One Who Isn't Chosen
All About Buffy

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