Okay, I know there's some brouhaha about the S8 comics and objectification right now. As most know, I don't read the comics, so I don't feel qualified to weigh in at all. I have a guess of an opinion, but it's devoid of context and, therefore, not really presentable as any sort of serious argument.
But from seeing some of the fringes of it, it made me start to think of objectification. What it means. What sort of presence it has in the show. The TV show. This post...not about the comics. Don't bring them up. Really. I will spank you if you do.
I've seen people (in other debates) argue about what "objectification" means. And I'm not sure I have a quick and dirty answer. So let me ramble about the topic and see if I hit on anything.
My immediate starting point is the male gaze. The Wiki link has a pretty decent summary of it, but let me try my own words.
There is a default assumption that women in media are there for men. To appeal to men. As such, women will be portrayed in the media in ways that visually please men. This involves awkward poses, camera angles that highlight "assets", such as the classic "tits and ass" shots, skimpy costumes, make-up, etc.
This is so ingrained in our media that women have to appeal to men, that we're unaccustomed to seeing something where a woman is not presented with a male gaze.
Let me give you a personal example:
I watched the Yeah Yeah Yeahs' video Gold Lion a while ago. It's a spiffy video. But in it, Karen O, the lead singer, is not shown in a typically "glamorous" way. She's dirty, her hair is unflattering, her costume is shapeless, and she comes off as rather...unattractive.
And this threw me. Really. I didn't know how to react to it. Because it was a video that was presenting a women in a completely unsexualized and unappealing way. Instead she was presented like...a male rocker might be presented.
When I realized what the disconnect was there, that I had learned to subconsciously expect the male gaze, I felt a bit of shame. And then a lot of love for Karen O (Really. Go watch the vid. It's awesome).
The male gaze is an inherently objectifying presentation. It portrays women as objects for men's visual pleasure. At its most extreme, the women will have no other purpose but to be eye-candy for the menfolk. But even in more moderate amounts, with a female character who has her own personality and purpose, that male gaze is still present. It still insists in showing her as desirable. As appealing to men. As fuckable.
Because no matter how smart a woman is, or strong, or capable, she must still be appealing to men.
The saturation of this has to be recognized. This is not something I can pull out examples and go, "See. Male gaze!" Because it's literally everywhere. It's always been everywhere. It's how we know to depict women. It's most noticeable when a woman is not shown through the male gaze, as Karen O was in that video. Because it's strange. Because it goes against what we expect.
Now, objectification, on its own, devoid of social context, isn't inherently problematic. What is problematic is the cultural norms by which women are supposed to be objectified and men are not. Where women's characters are of secondary importance to their sex appeal.
So that makes examples of female objectification more troublesome because they come in the context of the larger sexist media.
Does BtVS, the TV show, utilize the male gaze? Of course it does. Does it do so to an outrageous extent? No. One of the appealing things about the show is that its male gaze and objectification is not as over-the-top as most of the media. Because, while Buffy may have worn skimpy clothes the first two seasons, the camera didn't feel the need to take slow, lingering shots of her legs/ass/boobs. Because it didn't often have gratuitous female nudity. And because Joss allowed the female characters' personality to be of primary importance over their sex appeal.
Indeed, BtVS tends to take the opposite approach. It bucks cultural norms and often objectifies the male form. Naked or shirtless Angel, naked or shirtless Riley, Xander in his underwear, naked or shirtless Spike. Hold the abs in the frame. Appeal to the fangirls.
The fangirls.
It's a show giving us something for the girls.
What a concept.
What does it mean to objectify? I rambled quite a bit about the male gaze, but objectification, while connected, is slightly different.
At its most basic, it's presenting a person as an object.
Sounds simple, but what, exactly, does it entail? Does any nudity equal objectification? How about tight clothes? Or sex scenes? Or cleavage shots?
I think it's most helpful to think of a spectrum of objectification. A range. Some instances are not as major as others.
Let's try to simple this down:
1. Objectification is when a character is portrayed in a way that is meant to sexually appeal to the male/female viewers. This is usually done by utilizing the male gaze (and, to a much lesser extent, the female gaze).
2. This may be present in one brief moment, such as a camera shot that focuses on an actress' boobs.
3. This may be the entire point of the character.
Obviously, the main issue with objectification is that there is a vast history in our media, past and present, of women only being shown as #3. Objectified. Their entire character is there to provide sex appeal. This is the most offensive end of the objectification spectrum.
But given this history, even minor examples that fit more into #2 can be problematic because they're representative of a much larger problem.
Buffy's tiny, tiny skirts of the early seasons are a problem in this context.
Faith's pushed-up boobage are a problem.
Harmony's lingerie.
Buffy dancing. Faith dancing. Problem.
Context doesn't matter.
We're looking at this from a societal context, not from a context of the show, itself. What matters is that these very few, minor examples from BtVS fit into a much larger pattern. And it's important to be aware of that.
It's also important to be aware that BtVS often subverts this. It's aware of this. S7's Dirty Girls plays a lot with the male gaze. And, as mentioned, it uses the female gaze to objectify its male characters much, much more than it does the opposite.
In some ways, this is similar to the Bechdel Test. The Bechdel Test is a measure to see if movies allow its female characters to have lives and conversations independent of men.
Breaking away from the male gaze, avoiding objectification of women, is also a way of asserting women's independence from men. By the visual act of showing that women can have an appearance that has nothing to do with appealing to men. That women can be displayed and shown in ways that are not meant to please men.
This is important. It's very important because it has real-life repercussions. Because women believe that they have to dress up and wear make-up just to take the trash out. Or work out. Or see the doctor. Because women are not allowed to appear in an unappealing fashion. Because we have to make sure that we look good for any man that may see us. And we absorb those subconscious beliefs because we are almost to never shown women in the media not done up to appeal to men. Because while it's perfectly acceptable in our TV shows and movies to show non-attractive, overweight, and dressed down men in a positive, sympathetic light, women do not have that luxury. They have to look fit. They have to look good. They have to look presentable. And if they don't, then they are open to ridicule by other characters and the audience.
It's important because on Halloween, women are expected to dress up. To look sexy. To look appealing. While men are open to looking anything from goofy, to dumb, to cool, to hot. Guys can wear a foam M&M and be okay. Women are not expected to do so, because they're supposed to dress in a way that highlights their sex appeal for men. Indeed, Halloween is often seen as an "excuse" for women to dress "slutty".
It's important because most people know what I mean when I refer to a "tits and ass" movie. And they shouldn't. Because a movie that depicts women as only body parts for men's perusal should not be so common that that phrase enters our lexicon.
It's important because there is no equivalent of "tits and ass" for objectified men in movies. Because it's not the norm. Because men are allowed to retain their individual personalities and be presented in ways independent of female sexual approval.
Part of the reason I love BtVS is because it doesn't fall into the objectification of women trope very often. I love it, also, because it turns the tables and objectifies men. This pleases me on all sorts of levels (some of the fangirlish variety).
Oh, I think I've rambled enough.
Again, don't bring up the comics. At all. I don't know a thing about them. I can't discuss them without knowing the context. And this post is not about them. Spanking, remember?
The TV show and the overall concepts of the male gaze and objectification are, of course, open for discussion. I'm fuzzy on a lot of my thoughts here, and I welcome other thoughts and opinions.
But from seeing some of the fringes of it, it made me start to think of objectification. What it means. What sort of presence it has in the show. The TV show. This post...not about the comics. Don't bring them up. Really. I will spank you if you do.
I've seen people (in other debates) argue about what "objectification" means. And I'm not sure I have a quick and dirty answer. So let me ramble about the topic and see if I hit on anything.
My immediate starting point is the male gaze. The Wiki link has a pretty decent summary of it, but let me try my own words.
There is a default assumption that women in media are there for men. To appeal to men. As such, women will be portrayed in the media in ways that visually please men. This involves awkward poses, camera angles that highlight "assets", such as the classic "tits and ass" shots, skimpy costumes, make-up, etc.
This is so ingrained in our media that women have to appeal to men, that we're unaccustomed to seeing something where a woman is not presented with a male gaze.
Let me give you a personal example:
I watched the Yeah Yeah Yeahs' video Gold Lion a while ago. It's a spiffy video. But in it, Karen O, the lead singer, is not shown in a typically "glamorous" way. She's dirty, her hair is unflattering, her costume is shapeless, and she comes off as rather...unattractive.
And this threw me. Really. I didn't know how to react to it. Because it was a video that was presenting a women in a completely unsexualized and unappealing way. Instead she was presented like...a male rocker might be presented.
When I realized what the disconnect was there, that I had learned to subconsciously expect the male gaze, I felt a bit of shame. And then a lot of love for Karen O (Really. Go watch the vid. It's awesome).
The male gaze is an inherently objectifying presentation. It portrays women as objects for men's visual pleasure. At its most extreme, the women will have no other purpose but to be eye-candy for the menfolk. But even in more moderate amounts, with a female character who has her own personality and purpose, that male gaze is still present. It still insists in showing her as desirable. As appealing to men. As fuckable.
Because no matter how smart a woman is, or strong, or capable, she must still be appealing to men.
The saturation of this has to be recognized. This is not something I can pull out examples and go, "See. Male gaze!" Because it's literally everywhere. It's always been everywhere. It's how we know to depict women. It's most noticeable when a woman is not shown through the male gaze, as Karen O was in that video. Because it's strange. Because it goes against what we expect.
Now, objectification, on its own, devoid of social context, isn't inherently problematic. What is problematic is the cultural norms by which women are supposed to be objectified and men are not. Where women's characters are of secondary importance to their sex appeal.
So that makes examples of female objectification more troublesome because they come in the context of the larger sexist media.
Does BtVS, the TV show, utilize the male gaze? Of course it does. Does it do so to an outrageous extent? No. One of the appealing things about the show is that its male gaze and objectification is not as over-the-top as most of the media. Because, while Buffy may have worn skimpy clothes the first two seasons, the camera didn't feel the need to take slow, lingering shots of her legs/ass/boobs. Because it didn't often have gratuitous female nudity. And because Joss allowed the female characters' personality to be of primary importance over their sex appeal.
Indeed, BtVS tends to take the opposite approach. It bucks cultural norms and often objectifies the male form. Naked or shirtless Angel, naked or shirtless Riley, Xander in his underwear, naked or shirtless Spike. Hold the abs in the frame. Appeal to the fangirls.
The fangirls.
It's a show giving us something for the girls.
What a concept.
What does it mean to objectify? I rambled quite a bit about the male gaze, but objectification, while connected, is slightly different.
At its most basic, it's presenting a person as an object.
Sounds simple, but what, exactly, does it entail? Does any nudity equal objectification? How about tight clothes? Or sex scenes? Or cleavage shots?
I think it's most helpful to think of a spectrum of objectification. A range. Some instances are not as major as others.
Let's try to simple this down:
1. Objectification is when a character is portrayed in a way that is meant to sexually appeal to the male/female viewers. This is usually done by utilizing the male gaze (and, to a much lesser extent, the female gaze).
2. This may be present in one brief moment, such as a camera shot that focuses on an actress' boobs.
3. This may be the entire point of the character.
Obviously, the main issue with objectification is that there is a vast history in our media, past and present, of women only being shown as #3. Objectified. Their entire character is there to provide sex appeal. This is the most offensive end of the objectification spectrum.
But given this history, even minor examples that fit more into #2 can be problematic because they're representative of a much larger problem.
Buffy's tiny, tiny skirts of the early seasons are a problem in this context.
Faith's pushed-up boobage are a problem.
Harmony's lingerie.
Buffy dancing. Faith dancing. Problem.
Context doesn't matter.
We're looking at this from a societal context, not from a context of the show, itself. What matters is that these very few, minor examples from BtVS fit into a much larger pattern. And it's important to be aware of that.
It's also important to be aware that BtVS often subverts this. It's aware of this. S7's Dirty Girls plays a lot with the male gaze. And, as mentioned, it uses the female gaze to objectify its male characters much, much more than it does the opposite.
In some ways, this is similar to the Bechdel Test. The Bechdel Test is a measure to see if movies allow its female characters to have lives and conversations independent of men.
Breaking away from the male gaze, avoiding objectification of women, is also a way of asserting women's independence from men. By the visual act of showing that women can have an appearance that has nothing to do with appealing to men. That women can be displayed and shown in ways that are not meant to please men.
This is important. It's very important because it has real-life repercussions. Because women believe that they have to dress up and wear make-up just to take the trash out. Or work out. Or see the doctor. Because women are not allowed to appear in an unappealing fashion. Because we have to make sure that we look good for any man that may see us. And we absorb those subconscious beliefs because we are almost to never shown women in the media not done up to appeal to men. Because while it's perfectly acceptable in our TV shows and movies to show non-attractive, overweight, and dressed down men in a positive, sympathetic light, women do not have that luxury. They have to look fit. They have to look good. They have to look presentable. And if they don't, then they are open to ridicule by other characters and the audience.
It's important because on Halloween, women are expected to dress up. To look sexy. To look appealing. While men are open to looking anything from goofy, to dumb, to cool, to hot. Guys can wear a foam M&M and be okay. Women are not expected to do so, because they're supposed to dress in a way that highlights their sex appeal for men. Indeed, Halloween is often seen as an "excuse" for women to dress "slutty".
It's important because most people know what I mean when I refer to a "tits and ass" movie. And they shouldn't. Because a movie that depicts women as only body parts for men's perusal should not be so common that that phrase enters our lexicon.
It's important because there is no equivalent of "tits and ass" for objectified men in movies. Because it's not the norm. Because men are allowed to retain their individual personalities and be presented in ways independent of female sexual approval.
Part of the reason I love BtVS is because it doesn't fall into the objectification of women trope very often. I love it, also, because it turns the tables and objectifies men. This pleases me on all sorts of levels (some of the fangirlish variety).
Oh, I think I've rambled enough.
Again, don't bring up the comics. At all. I don't know a thing about them. I can't discuss them without knowing the context. And this post is not about them. Spanking, remember?
The TV show and the overall concepts of the male gaze and objectification are, of course, open for discussion. I'm fuzzy on a lot of my thoughts here, and I welcome other thoughts and opinions.
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Comments
But you're an intimidating woman, so I'll not do so, anyway.
Because society tells us as women that we have to make ourselves look nice and pretty and desirable all the time-but not too desirable or made-up, because then we're dirty tramps! Find the fine line somewhere girls, but on Halloween do whatever.
I think BTVS does a great job of having girls as heroes and as characters themselves as opposed to "the girlfriend", the hot chick, the nerd, whatever. I mean, sometimes shots linger too long on Cordy's Halloween catsuit or whatever, but I generally think the show gets this right a good deal of the time.
In a lot of music videos, you just get shots of hips and ass or a girl grinding onto of a car, and sometimes you don't even get their faces, and this bothers me the most. We was women are not just a collection of our sexually desirable body parts. I don't watch too many music videos, but I went on a road trip last weekend, and my friend had music videos on her iphone that were playing through the cars stereo, and I wasn't...surprised, more like a little sad at what I saw.
I don't watch music videos often, either. When I do, it's for artists and bands that I like and respect a lot. The more mainstream bands just make me headdesk with all the boob flashes and ass shots. Because while I never watch MTV, I know most people do, and most young teens do, and they're learning that this is how it's supposed to be. Women are highly sexualized body parts walking around with no personality or wills of their own.
Meh.
In fact, Buffy tells Willow exactly this in the episode "Halloween."
I love it, also, because it turns the tables and objectifies men. This pleases me on all sorts of levels (some of the fangirlish variety).
I don't totally get this. I mean, sure, I like to look at the pretty boys as much as anyone. But if it's not okay to objectify women, why should it be okay to objectify men? Feminism is about wanting equality, sure, but I'd rather it not be the lowest common denominator.
I actually had a problem with the male objectification on BtVS. I mean, yay that they avoid the trope of not objectifying women, but is it too much to ask that we have a show not objectifying anyone? For fuck's sake, when you have an actor deliberately trying to gain weight just so he won't have to take his shirt off every day when he comes to work, you've really gone too far.
Frankly, it's the larger cultural context.
If we lived in a perfect gender-equal world with plenty of non-objectified portrayals of men and women, then any instance of objectification would not be a problem. Because there would be a balance in representation.
I know it's likely not something that people will agree with me on, but I don't think objectification is inherently problematic. Because presenting people as sexually appealing is part of the media, and it serves a function. The problem is when that function is the only way women can be portrayed. And it's a problem when men are rarely portrayed in that fashion.
So, yeah, I like to see a balancing of the scales. I like to see some equal-opportunity perving.
For fuck's sake, when you have an actor deliberately trying to gain weight just so he won't have to take his shirt off every day when he comes to work, you've really gone too far.
My understanding was that JM didn't want his fans to keep asking him to take his shirt off during con appearances and such. The issue there is dumb, ill-mannered fans.
Comics.
I'm currently debating with the boyfriend about whether we should go as Dr. Girlfriend (me) & the Monarch (him) or Silk Spectre II (him) & Nite Owl II (me). Either way, he's the one getting stuck with the spandex.
I've always thought it an incredible double standard that I should have to wear makeup or I don't look "nice." As in, if I went to work without makeup, I would not be making a professional appearance. Doesn't matter that I could be dressed nicer than every single one of my coworkers. Men are allowed to have marked skin or circles under their eyes, and no one says they should use some concealer. But *I* should do that, or I don't look nice, don't look like I'm trying. (This isn't related to a specific event that I've experienced personally, but just a general attitude I've noticed.) And I rather like the way I look with makeup. But I hate the feeling that I *should* put it on.
I do tend to wear light make-up on most days. But when I'm tired/in a hurry/just can't be bothered, I don't feel obligated to put it on. It irks me that some people might see this as a problem.
One of the wonderful things about Sex in the City series - and it is a landmark series for this reason - is it objectified men. Men were sex objects. The male characters often had no role outside of what they did for the women. One man in the movie - has no dialogue, he is nothing more than a body for the character of Samantha to lust over. Men (straight men) don't tend to like Sex in the City - because the men are either romanticized or objectified. The women treat men as objects, ways to get off, etc. Most of the lead character, Carrie's male suitors - have no name. And her main squeeze?Just called "Big" - as in well, "BIG". The series was also largely about women loving sex, being turned on by looking at a man.
Buffy does the same thing, as you mention above, it incorporates the female gaze. In S6-7, a lot of male viewers complained about NakedSpike. One male viewer, in fact, told me that he wasn't going to be happy unless he could see Sarah naked as well. (Keep dreaming, I told him, Sarah Michelle Gellar at her husband's urging had a nudity clause in her contract - which meant they could not show her naked.) They thought it was unfair. (Poor babies.) James Marsters even whined about it - stating it was easier to be nude on screen if your partner was nude as well. I wondered when he said that if he realized historically in tv how many times we see a woman's naked chest and her bottom, but not the man's?
It was not until the late 1980s that we saw male nudity. And in film, when you saw it - the ratings had a field day. I think American Giglio was one of the few films that showed full frontal. It's rare.
In Buffy they didn't go that far, but Angel, Riley, OZ, Xander,
and Spike all have nude scenes or naked scenes in the series.
We see very little of Faith, Buffy, Willow, Dawn, Anya, or Cordelia. In either Angel or Buffy.
Whedon deliberately went with the female gaze.
In his Cultural Humanist Q&A - someone asked Whedon about Dollhouse and feminism and objectifying. He said that Dollhouse really isn't meant to be a feminist text per se. That what he was interested in critiquing in Dollhouse and exploring was objectification - that he believes we have a tendency to objectify each other. That people project their desires onto someone else. Make them into the object of their desire.
PS:have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the comics and I have actually read the comics.
And, yep on Buffy. I think that's why I enjoy watching BtVS when I don't really like watching much TV. It's because I'm not treated to gratuitous objectification of women onscreen. And because I get the rare treat of seeing the male form displayed for my enjoyment.
I think objectification in some form is inevitable. It's a part of sexuality, especially when regarding characters on a screen. They are somebody that's "safe" to objectify. That's why objectification isn't inherently offensive to me. It's the current imbalance and the lack of many non-objectified portrayals of women that bother me. Because, while objectification may be inevitable, it should be balanced and not be the only way to regard one whole gender.
PS:have no idea what you are talking about in regards to the comics and I have actually read the comics.
Then don't worry about it. :)
I will disagree with you, however, and agree with
However. I'm not going to get upset about objectifying men. Because of all the reasons you mentioned: it isn't everywhere like it is with women. It's always optional when it's men. So while that quote from JM upthread makes me wince and feel horribly sorry for the man...I'm not going to go on a campaign to stop the objectification of men or probably even write a ranty lj post the way I would with the same being done to women. It isn't on the same level at all.
I also don't think that all of the instances of portraying men more sexually than women on BtVS is objectification, though I know that sometimes they crossed that line, just as they did with the female characters (if JM really did feel like a whore, I don't think that's okay). So I'm with you in thinking it's awesome that, say, the men instead of the women are taking their shirts off--women rarely get to appreciate that sort of thing in media--except for those times when I feel that it crossed a line.
Yeah.
Here's the thing--"sexy" and "appealing" don't have to tie into "slutty" and/or "scantily clad." Not to mention that we have a choice in what we do or don't wear. I suppose that's the heart of my disagreement here--if you have the choice, then what you do with it (or don't) is on you. It may be expected of women (and even perpetuated by women, at least from the media I've seen that specifically references "slut" dress and Halloween), but the choice is still there.
and even perpetuated by women, at least from the media I've seen that specifically references "slut" dress and Halloween
The media is controlled by men, not women.
I do think that sex appeal vs. objectification is fairly easy to spot. Is the object only that? Or is that person a fully-realized character/person/centaur/what-have-you? If they are only there to titillate, then it's probably not going to be satisfactory to us discerning viewers, regardless of the gender on display. Yes, Spike was shirtless a lot, and I can't seem to regret it, but it isn't the shirtlessness that draws me to his character. It is his unabashed lust for life, largely, which is communicated to us partially through his abs. Have I lost the high ground yet?
lol! Don't forget the Cheekbones o' Sexiness!
Oh...huh...I suppose that means he can be objectified without even taking off his shirt. Poor James just can't win.
I do wish that JM had been given a way out of that situation. I feel horrible that he felt forced to do something that obviously made him incredibly uncomfortable and distressed.
But in the larger picture, I can't help but think of the many many actresses who have been in the same situation.
We're looking at this from a societal context, not from a context of the show, itself. What matters is that these very few, minor examples from BtVS fit into a much larger pattern. And it's important to be aware of that.
I agree with this. I think a lot depends on whether you’re attempting an analysis at population level, for example using a measure like the Bechdel Test to illustrate the fundamental differences in the way Hollywood treats male and female character or using such tests to judge the sexism or otherwise of an individual series/movie. In fandom discussions it often sees that what people are trying to do is more of the latter and it can come across as the equivalent of trying to take the mean of an anecdote.
In the context of the media as a whole Buffy and Faith dancing is yet another item to add to a long list of female objectification. In the context of the series, which arguably functions as a kind of safe space for female fans, they’re not pandering to the male gaze but discomforting it much as Angel was discomforted. Depending on the context the same degree of nakedness can be objectifying or a way to express social dominance. Spike walking around half-naked in S6 objectifies him. Hugh Hefner wandering around the Playboy mansion half-naked is a demonstration of his not having to care what his ‘playmates’ think.
It’s complicated, I tend to think continued questioning of these issues can be more important than the answers. For example, I do remember JM saying at one point , while talking about his state of undress during S6, that it did make him realize what his female co-stars had to deal with all the time. I think that has to be a good.
You agree with me? How nifty. ;)
It’s complicated, I tend to think continued questioning of these issues can be more important than the answers.
Indeed. Any discussion inevitability leads to more questions and more thoughts, which can't be a bad thing. Because the big problem is that people are largely unaware of how women are depicted in the media. They accept it as the norm. So becoming aware of it, talking about it, criticizing it, eventually breaks that norm.
Have you seen the pictures from the Emmy awards? Joss and Team Horrible won an Emmy, which is excellent news. But in all the pictures all the women look ... sexually available. And the men? Not so much. In the pic of the Whedon Gang getting their Emmy the two women look lovely - low-cut tops etc, but pretty. Not slutty at all, but... And the men? Joss is wearing sneakers fer gosh sakes. Only NPH, who was a presenter (and is also gay, hmmm?) looks "hot". And the rest of the audience shots follow the same pattern.
It's interesting when you read JM's comments about the near-nudity in S6 - he hated it, partly because SMG wrapped up in warm clothes and giggled at him in, one assumes, "Gone", but also because he felt objectified. He's compared kissing on film to prostitution too. Now the man is a wonderful actor and a delightful, if sometimes naive and clueless person. But he has no idea what a tiny taste he's getting of the routine female experience. At the Marstersclass in May he told the audience that auditions are tough in Hollywood, but worse for the girls who have to undergo a "bodycheck", stripped down to underwear.
I lust after Spike and enjoy the skin show. In some ways that is certainly objectification. But possibly, just possibly, it's a long-overdue adjustment of the balance?
Edited at 2009-09-13 01:15 pm (UTC)
At the Marstersclass in May he told the audience that auditions are tough in Hollywood, but worse for the girls who have to undergo a "bodycheck", stripped down to underwear.
Good grief! I didn't know that.
Also, major major word to having places on the Net where discussions of this nature can be intellectual and serious - cause RL is not so much with that most of the time.
I agree that context is a tricky thing - it doesn't matter when it comes to seeing whether something is a part of the long line of historical objectification, but it does matter when it comes to judging whether it was necessary for the plot or whether the show is objectifying overall.
To sidle on over to race, one instance of a black person being savage doesn't make the creator or the show racist. But taken with the cultural and historical aspects, it falls into a bad trend - because you almost never see that happen with white people.
People who refuse to look out of show context and say that it's all part of the character - Faith is a sexual person, Buffy and Faith would dance like that, etc. - are partly right. But also partly wrong, because it's really important to take historical context into, well, context. No one can just "happen" to be a woman and also sexually objectified, or "happen" to be black and portrayed as savage - cultural stuff does go into it.
One is that even pointing out objectification can be perceived as a full-blown attack on the show. Even when it usually isn't. You can admit, "Yeah, that sure objectified Character X" and love the show to death. It's just being willing to be aware of how the show plays into the larger societal context.
That means that even minor stuff that I generally wouldn't even mention because it doesn't bother me (pretty much any of the objectification on BtVS) does still need to be recognized for what it is. The show was created in a sexist and racist culture. It's gonna absorb and reflect a lot of those sexist and racist values, even without meaning to.
When thinking about the pervasiveness of the male gaze, it occurred to me that this is even inherent in movies that are not marketed to male viewers- romantic comedies and "chick flicks," for instance. You'd think in those films that you stereotypically have to drag your guy to see with you, there would be a different image of women than in male-oriented films. But not so. Because the male gaze is so ingrained in women's minds that they themselves see it as desirable, and thus their images of women in movies targeted for them fit the type as well. Talk about the male gaze being everywhere.
I am glad that the later seasons moved Buffy's wardrobe away from the short skirts and low-cut tops we saw a lot of in S1. I think this could be interpreted as connected to her character as well- from a typical high school girl who only cares about clothes and boys, to a strong, serious, and powerful Slayer. As her role as a character became more independent and less reliant on the male gaze, so did her wardrobe. (And there's no reason why a girl can't kick ass in heels...but as you mentioned, we're talking social context, not show context.)
The point about the objectification being reversed was interesting. The first scene that came to my mind was from Season 6 (I think it was "Gone") when Spike is having sex with invisible Buffy and someone (Xander? I can't remember) walks in, so Spike pretends that he's "exercising". It's a sex scene where we don't objectify the female body because it's not visible to us- all we get is a nice view of Spike there.
Auggh, and the Halloween thing bothers me too. I wasn't actually in the market for a costume, but I was browsing Amazon for my fall textbooks and ended up perusing the Halloween costume section. Almost every outfit, no matter what the character, had "sexy" or something in front of it, or was tight-fitting or revealing. Maybe I'll just go as Eskimo Willow this year. :)
Yep. It's hard to break from it. Like my example with the music video where I didn't know how to take it because it wasn't presented with a male gaze. Women get the message that that's how they're supposed to look, and that they're supposed to be appealing to guys at all times.
As her role as a character became more independent and less reliant on the male gaze, so did her wardrobe.
Interesting take. I can certainly buy that.
It's a sex scene where we don't objectify the female body because it's not visible to us- all we get is a nice view of Spike there.
A very nice view. :)
I haven't even looked for Halloween costumes yet this year. I usually do tend to dress "sexy", though. Cause I buy into that whole, "Oooo! I get to dress sexy without being called a 'whore'!" thing. But, hey, at least I'm aware of it!
This is important. It's very important because it has real-life repercussions. Because women believe that they have to dress up and wear make-up just to take the trash out. Or work out. Or see the doctor. Because women are not allowed to appear in an unappealing fashion. Because we have to make sure that we look good for any man that may see us.
This. So very true.
Thing is, a lot of women are aware that society is asking perfection out of them. And are still playing that game 'cause it feels like every other value you can have doesn't matter unless you're pretty and appealing.
It's very important because it has real-life repercussions. Because women believe that they have to dress up and wear make-up just to take the trash out. Or work out. Or see the doctor.
I dress nicely and wear make-up every time I go to see the doctor. Every time. I have too much riding on my medical care to worry about not being taken seriously, especially when people with my health problems are often seen as drug-seeking and/or crazy.
I don't know if men have the same problems. I suspect that it is easier, as a man, to get appropriate treatment even when your physician has only your own self-report to rely on.
Afraid I don't have any. What I, personally, know is pieced together from various Q&A transcripts and interviews and such. I don't know that there's a centralized link. A more attentive JM fan than me may be able to provide, though.
Basic story, as I know: JM was eager to get his shirt off at first because he was terrified Joss would kill him off, and he thought a shirtless Spike would be way too much of a hit to be written out. JM finally got his wish and them some with numerous nude and shirtless scenes in S6. Apparently, there was some harassment on set, and the fans at Q&As took to yelling at him to take his shirt off all the time. This was, obviously, upsetting to JM, who put on weight for S7 and tried to keep his shirt on for the last season (and he was mostly successful).
I dress nicely and wear make-up every time I go to see the doctor. Every time. I have too much riding on my medical care to worry about not being taken seriously, especially when people with my health problems are often seen as drug-seeking and/or crazy.
Oh, same here. I always dress up when seeing my shrink, at least, because I know they assess physical appearance (cause I saw the form for it). And apparently anything casual like jeans and t-shirt counts only as "clean", not "well-groomed".