This doesn't compute for me. I mean...these people do know we're on the internet, right? Okay, I know that LJ fandom is pretty damn insular and that people on the outside consider LJ retro-Web 2.0 and often dismiss it as "overly-dramatic teenage girl stuff" (and not "retro" in the cool way, but "retro" in the "ew. puke-orange carpet" way). But...people do link to shit on LJ. Our entries are linkable, even if we have things set so we don't get spidered by Google.
Okay, maybe I'm coming from a weird perspective, cause my journal is very much a big Buffy playground. It's wide open for discussions and disagreements (except on personal posts, because my personal life is not and will never be up for debate or criticism, but those posts are always flocked for that very reason). I guess I expect random people to drop in, and I never think that any public post I write is just restricted to my flist. Seriously, open LJ. It is modded, actually, but because Buffy fandom is made of awesome, I haven't had to put on my Mod Hat much at all (I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to do so. And very, very few of those required freezing threads).
But, then, my stuff is mainly meta/polls, etc. I do know that the people who are discussing their personal LJ as being somehow non-public are referring to fanfics.
So let's look at fanfics.
Any fanfic I write is posted publicly. My LJ gets outside traffic. I expect that. That's why there are links on the left to my Master Fic and Drabble List. That's for new peeps to check out my shit.
Additionally, I know that any fanfic I write and post publicly is subject to being linked to by:
- Reccers
- Award sites
- Individual fans telling their friend/s to read my stuff (alas, I only dream of this happening, but it is a possibility)
- Search engines
- ANYONE CAUSE IT'S THE FUCKING INTERNET
Any link some random stranger rides in on will inevitably take them directly to my fanfic that I have made public with the intention of it being read (don't give me some "writing for pure joy" crap. If you're posting your stuff, you want it to be read by someone). If I choose not to label and/or warn in my own space because of some notion that my space exists in an impenetrable bubble, this stranger will likely be missing important meta-info to frame my fic. Additionally, they may end up reading my totally awesome fic where evil!Spike in alt-S2 rapes Buffy while she's kidnapped by Angelus, but it's okay cause she totally falls for him and they end up in love (not an actual fic I've written). Some of these random strangers will love it. Some may go, "Ugh. Non-con. Wish they'd warned for that." And others may not be able to say anything because they're currently in the middle of a flashback to their own sexual assault and will be effectively disabled for days because they didn't receive the valuable information to help them make a crucial decision on whether to read my fic or not.
I'm trying to avoid the common verbiage that's brought up by the "pro-warning" side (which is not a monolithic beast but involves an array of opinions, much like the "anti-warning" side. I'm uncomfortable presenting it as a strict dichotomy, but my brain is tired and I'm unable to think of an alternative). "Obligation", "should", "have to", etc...these are words that can bring a conversation to a halt because nobody enjoys being told that they "should" do something or that they have an "obligation". Especially when discussing their own space.
And they're right. While your LJ is public, it is your space. You have the ultimate right to play in it on your own terms. Nobody has the right to make you do anything in your own space.
But I don't think anybody's trying to do this. Because it's recognized, yes, there are no fandom police. We are a large, unruly, contradictory group. We have no ruling force, and no reliable way of enforcing anything. This is for the best.
However, I do think people have the right to also make a request of you in terms of your own space. Because it does need to be recognized that, unless your LJ is completely flocked, your own space is public. It's out there. It's open. And because your LJ is publicly accessibly to the world-at-large, it is considerate to take that into account when posting things which contain potentially triggery material.
Because the viewpoint that there should be no consequences or repercussions for things posted to your own LJ is bullshit at best. LJ is a communication tool. It's a communication tool that's geared towards forming networks and communities. Everything you post on LJ is something you're communicating. And you can choose to communicate to a select few by making an flocked post. By making it public, you are opening yourself up to feedback, criticism, and, yes, it bestows upon you a responsibility over your own words.
Our personal LJs are often referred to as our "living rooms", and that's a nice, cozy way of thinking about it. But it's a poor analogy for public journals. Our LJs are like park benches, and we're standing on top of them, shouting our views and thoughts to anybody that might pass by and choose to listen. If you say something that harms someone, they're well within their rights to call you on it. And, yes, other people are within their rights to say, "Hey, would you mind putting a sign on your bench to let people know you're gonna be talking about this stuff?"
You have the right to ignore them and not put up a sign. Because in LJ-land, there are no policemen to run you off (excepting in cases of LJ-the-corporation passing out bans for TOS-breakage, which is irrelevant to this case).
And you know what? I have the right to think you're something of an ass for dismissing the people who are telling you, "What you're saying is triggering me. Please let me know you're going to be saying this so I can get away."
Please note what they're not asking. They're not asking you to stop saying it. They just want a heads up so that they can avoid it.
If you prioritize your freedom to publicly post unlabeled/unwarned for fic on the internet at the expense of people who have spoken up and said, "Hey, this hurts. Please help by giving me the tools I need to avoid things that might trigger me."
...well, yeah, I think you're something of a jerk. On the internet, we only have each other's words to go by in forming opinions of another person. And you're choosing a very selfish persona to display.
And let's get this straight from the get-go: this is not about people being offended by your fic. This is not about people feeling a bit sad after reading your fic. This is not about people feeling squicked by something in your fic. This is about people having trauma-related triggers and literally flashing back to their original trauma. This is not something people are making up in order to "emotionally blackmail" writers into caving to their whims. They are not looking for people to "hold their hand" through fandom, but they are asking writers to provide them the necessary information so that they can make an informed decision about whether to read or not.
You know...this ended up being more about warnings than I expected. Funny, that.
Rules on this post:
1. You are allowed to discuss this post
2. You are allowed to disagree with this post
3. You are allowed to debate with me (or others) on this post
4. You are allowed to use logical fallacies such as the straw man or the slippery slope fallacy. But you will be called on it if you choose to do so.
5. You are not allowed to trivialize or dismiss people with triggers or who are mentally ill. You will be warned once if you do so, and then you will not be welcome in this space anymore.
For those needing context (way, way at the bottom of this), check out
![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/community.gif){kind=small}
metafandom, check out my previous post on character death warnings, and, if you only have time to read one post on the subject, read ![[info]](http://l-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
impertinence's post on triggers (Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery).In happier news, I rotated my icons! New Willowy-goodness! *does happy Willow dance*
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Comments
And this is one of the reasons why your journal is awesome. That and when you unleash it like here. Bossy Gabs! You tell 'em.
I personally am quite happy with having the warning there with a highlight option, it's the very least I can do. I agree that our LJ's aren't private. We're on the internet here for the love of Jossus. And just because the internet is home to the crazies and the rude jerks doesn't mean we have to suffer it within our community.
LJ Buffy fandom really is extraordinary. I know Buffy fandom used to be a mess and ultra-wanky. But here, at least in my corner on LJ, it's fantastic. I don't think I've ever met such a wonderful bunch of people. *tears up* You guys are just so great!
WORD. LJ Buffy fandom rocks my socks off. I have no socks. I am joyfully sockless.
It's really amazing to me all the Buffy awesomeness stored on LJ and all the amazing people. I kinda view LJ as the Buffy fan's evolutionary pinnacle. You rise up out of the crazy dregs of fan forum hullabaloo and become. Heh, we are self-actualized.
Evolutionary pinnacle. You know, I do think we are that awesome. I'll second that motion. :)
Yeah, you know we did used to be really wanky and horrible and now, looking at other fandoms and then looking back at us... you know what I reckon happened: I reckon we grew up.
There's this...thing about the internet. Where people think they can be jerks just because there's no technical consequences. Where, unlike in the real world, no one is going to be able to do anything beyond scold them or maybe ban them if they're assholes. Maybe they aren't assholes in general, but they think, "Hey, great time to let it out, cause it doesn't matter, and the people I'm offending aren't really people, they're just names on a screen!"
Um. Wrong.
And people also like to be defensive. As in, you ask them to do something reasonable and logical, and they refuse, because it's a free country and they can do whatever they want, I'm rubber, you're glue, blah blah blah. It's childish and stupid and the thing about the internet is that it kind of depresses me about human nature.
Because people see assholish comments all over the place, and just go, "Oh, it's the Internet, of course it's like that." Which, you know, to be fair, is the reaction you have to make if you're not going to go nuts about it. But it's not just the Internet - it's not isolated. It's people you know - it's you, even, if you're pushed far enough, if you really don't think there are going to be any consequences, if none of your LJ friends are watching, if you're anonymous, if you don't quite realize what you're doing.
Ack. Enough cynicism from me - I'm kind of a grumpy old man at heart. Not sure I even really stayed on the topic, it's all kinda spinny.
Point being: thanks, as always, for saying this. I really do appreciate that you get up and say shit for people like me who don't really know how or aren't as informed on the issues.
And yay for new icons!
:P
*despairs*
Point being: thanks, as always, for saying this. I really do appreciate that you get up and say shit for people like me who don't really know how or aren't as informed on the issues.
I do it for the warm fuzzies of knowing some people are actually reading. :)
And yay for new icons!
Icons make everything better!
Definitely. It's at once incredibly frustrating and saddening, but also kind of hopeful-making - because it shows that people aren't all that bad, and it's just the circumstances making them all shitty.
I do it for the warm fuzzies of knowing some people are actually reading. :)
Hooray!
Icons make everything better!
They do, at that. Could we somehow take icons out of their Internet form, and ship them to, say, Iran? Could that be worked out? I think it'd work pretty well.
So... fandom? >;)
Oh, well. I appreciate your willingness to play host to people who sometimes agree, sometimes disagree, without everyone getting all shirty about it. That's why I was lured into posting here to begin with. (Damn your womanly wiles.)
roland
And the awesome discussions we manage to have here have very little to do with my hosting. It's all because the fans are fab and intelligent and thoughtful in this corner of Buffy fandom. :)
(Damn your womanly wiles.)
It's the Willow icons. She's a sexay thang.
But once we start doing it, we kinda have to rethink the rules. People don't live in isolation.
Ah, I got rambly. Just woke up. :)
I was just thinking about this since all the posts made about fanfic choices and what 'should' and 'shouldn't. ;)
However, I do think people have the right to also make a request of you in terms of your own space.
I agree. This 'personal space' of ours has boundaries, for we're talking to people and we can't ignore them or their possible reactions.
Because the viewpoint that there should be no consequences or repercussions for things posted to your own LJ is bullshit at best. Yes. I'm a bit fed up with those who claim that freedom of speech is the only rule.Freedom of speech is wonderful but there are consequences .
If you say something that harms someone, they're well within their rights to call you on it. Nods again.
You make an interesting point by mentioning that a warning would be good to know if a reader can safely go further .
Heads-up are fine and useful , especially about fanfic. But what about other subjects ? Sometimes people say :"Hey, i'm going to rant about post-series fics!" which doesn't really help to know what is really hiding behind the cut. So you read and sometimes you're hurt because you adore post series fics and the person is pissing on that.
What I mean is that even with a warning and a sign , do people can say anything knowing their audience might be upset?
Well perhaps it wasn't exactly at the heart of 'your' post ?!
Nedd to ponder and I 'm going to post about it, I think. :)
As far as sharing views that others may find wrong, disagreeable, or opposite your fannish belief...those don't really require warnings. Because any average person is gonna find a myriad of different opinions on the internet, and so there's that expectation.
However, there are common subjects that can trigger people (and I'm speaking of triggering in the actual, psychological sense). Rape, self-injury, character death, etc. These topics are guaranteed to trigger a good number of people. And warning for triggers is a way of helping them avoid a potentially (and excruciating) experience involving flashbacks to their original trauma. That is something that needs to be warned for. (and this is not uncommon in other sections of the internet. Site about self-injury often have warnings, as do sites about rape)
So what you're bringing up is really not a comparable situation, because nobody in this particular debate seems to be asking for all opinions they find irritating to be warned for. They're asking for the big stuff that has the potential to leave lasting psychological harm.
They're asking for the big stuff that has the potential to leave lasting psychological harm. Now I see that even if some things that you said were tied in my mind to some thoughts I had about people expressing some unpopular opinions , I understand that it's something different and a lot more serious.
I do think it's interesting to discuss how people handle opposing and unpopular opinions in fandom, and how to facilitate productive conversation in that case rather than causing a wankstorm. But I'd prefer that to be a topic for another place (Would love to hear your thoughts on your LJ, if you want to do up an entry). :)
Sometimes I wonder. I really, really do...
Thought you might like to know I have done this several times. I like your fics, they are awesome. :)
Totally with you on the warnings issue, too. Having suffered from mental illness, being triggered unexpectedly really sucks.
Having suffered from mental illness, being triggered unexpectedly really sucks.
I can't even imagine. The closest thing I've experienced is being thrown into a depressive episode, and I'm willing to bet being triggered is a whole lot worse. I am glad to see that people, even if they don't like warning, are starting to put a general "I don't warn" notice on their stuff, which is warning enough to stay away from their fics.
This...shouldn't be a foreign concept to people.
Oh, and I know you're getting this a lot, but I know you're also getting a lot of very, very inappropriate words directed at you, but I sincerely admire you for how you've handled all of this. Thank you for bringing these attentions to light and for the way you've dealt with the responses. You're awesome.
Thank you so much. I tried to provide an example for people to draw on - and it sucks that it's stirred up so much negativity, but the sheer level of awareness it's brought is more than worth it.
I have a paid account precisely because I can now say that I 'rent' my little corner of the Internet, therefore I have paid for the right to have a say in how my Internet furniture gets arranged and who gets to sit on it.
Now you may not care for the color of the couch, which is your perfect right.** You can even say "Hey, wow, that green couch really clashes with the orange drapes. Have you considered perhaps a yellow couch instead?"
At which point, I may well stop, stare at the couch and come to the realization that you are indeed correct and yellow would be better. Alternatively, I may respond that the couch was passed down to me by my grandmother and I have no wish to change it up, for sentimental reasons. I might instead change the color of the drapes so as not to clash with the couch. Or I could ignore your request entirely (I'm generally not prone to that level of rudeness, but it is an option).
The point being that it is ultimately my decision.
You as my guest can request I change the couch. You can even present a marvelous argument in favor of doing so (I'll be the first to admit that I may not consider that perhaps green gives some people migraine headaches, so another color might be preferable, as I am not prone to migraines.
At the very least I will give your request due consideration. I do, after all, make every attempt to be a polite hostess.
But nobody gets to demand I change the color of my couch. I'm open to reasonable discussion and disagreement over the color of my couch. I am not open to dictatorial behaviour regarding it.
**My metaphor, incidentally, is NOT meant to trivialize the pro-warning camp (one with which I tend to agree for the most part), but an attempt to pick a (hopefully) non-triggery, non-inflammatory metaphor that would still get my point across. If I have failed in this, I do apologize.
I have not demanded you do anything of the sort. In fact, I acknowledged that, yes, you have the absolute right to control your space.
However, when you're choosing to present your public space in a manner that has the potential to cause serious harm without providing the most basic of warnings...well, you have to accept that people will make assessments of you on the basis of that, and that they would have every right to form a negative opinion.
The point of this post is not to make demands of people in their own space (I, in fact, very explicitly don't do this). It is instead to point out that posting publicly in your own journal does carry consequences, and you can't handwave those away just because it's "your space".
And yes, I do acknowledge that taking that stance means that some people might be offended. To which they are entitled. Not handwaving that away in the least.
I see it as a balancing act between how I wish to present myself and how others perceive that presentation. It's a reality of our physical world that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If I truly don't want that reaction? Best I had not take the action that might engender that.
Believe it or not, I am actually more in favor of the pro-warning argument. In my fic journal, I do put up warnings and cuts, if for no other reason that I also must assume that my particular fic kinks may not match other peoples, so best to let them know beforehand.
The 'my space' argument has been bothering me as much as the 'artistic freedom' one.
LiveJournal is a tool for sharing your thoughts, feelings, fic, whatever, with other people. If you didn't want other people to have access to what you're writing, you'd be writing on a Word document, not the internet.
"Things you post in public are public" is apparently new and shocking information to many people on LJ. This makes me sad on multiple levels.
But actually considering the affect it could have on some others- debilitating flashbacks, bring up old trauma?
Warnings should be mandatory-- but put behind an LJ cut if they contain spoilers, so that only those who want to know what they are have to know.
Compromise=Good? Y/N?
Putting warnings under an LJ cut is a good solution, as is using highlightable warnings so that the people that want to read them can while the people that don't want spoilers can skip them.
I don't think warnings should be mandatory as...well...there's no way to mandate that. Fandom has no central authority (and I think that's a good thing). I do think warnings should be the standard, though. However, all we can do is ask and hope that writers oblige.
...well, yeah, I think you're something of a jerk. On the internet, we only have each other's words to go by in forming opinions of another person. And you're choosing a very selfish persona to display.
I agree with all of it, but the above x 1 billion. If I see one more person basically saying, "I'm allowed to do whatever I want! Freedom of choice rah rah! But you're not allowed to have opinions about it, that's mean!" My head might just explode. Holy failure of logic. I want to slowly explain: people are *not* trying to bully or mass-guilt-trip you. They just all genuinely think you're being an ass. Sorry.