The One Who Isn't Chosen ([info]gabrielleabelle) wrote,
@ 2009-06-27 22:45:00

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Current mood: lethargic
Current music:Jesca Hoop - Summertime | Powered by Last.fm
Entry tags:'tis a rant, btvs, fandom: meta

Warn for character death. There. I said it.
Well, I said earlier I didn't have anything to add to the recent warnings debate. Turns out I do (primarily because I finally got around to reading it in-depth and...this iteration is going off in a different direction than previous ones).

I've discussed my issues with depression before. It is chronic and clinical, and I'm pretty upfront about it. The topic of mental health and warnings has been buzzing around fandom (see [info]metafandom posts for background). So here's my two pennies...just cause I have them handy.



Triggers...

I have no triggers. Not in the strictest definition. Not in the way triggers are being discussed now. There are things which may send me into a depressive episode, which is...something quite different, I think. I don't want to conflate my experiences with triggers, because I think they're substantially distinct and incomparable. Being triggered is above and beyond anything I could imagine, and I would like to do anything I can to help keep people from being triggered.

Going into a depressive episode isn't flashing back to any past trauma. It doesn't involve any symptoms of anxiety. It's...just what it says on the tin. It puts me into a place where I am back in that deep, unclimbable hole and can't get out. It is, basically, a very negative experience that I try to avoid. As I mentioned, it's not an acute episode, like what [info]impertinence describes in her LJ (Warning: Very explicit discussion of sexual assault and the nature, anatomy, cause & effect of triggers. Is itself triggery).

Character death, suicide, self-injury, non-con have all, in the past, caused some problems with depressive episodes for me. I don't feel comfortable coming from the viewpoint of triggers because...I have none. But I will talk from the viewpoint of a depression sufferer who is vulnerable to depressive episodes.

If I run across unexpected character death or something along those lines, yes, I may very well go to a bad place (my generic term to clue my friends in that I'm having some issues). This is not "me feeling down" or being a bit sad for a night. And if you want to trivialize depression in that way, don't talk to me. It likely will not lead to self-harm (which I have done in the past, but no longer do). It likely will last a day or two and then I'll move past it. It's just something that happens when you deal with depression. Yes, even when on medication. As a person with chronic depression, you learn to live with it.

But I will resent the hell out of an author for it.

This is me coming from an entirely emotional place. Trying to argue with me about it will get you snarked at. I know that, while SI and non-con are typically seen as reasonable to warn for, character death is often regarded as "too spoilery". Newsflash: Me, reader, do not care. Hell, I tend to avoid sad movies. Why would I want to unexpectedly run across a sad fanfic during my relaxation time? This isn't like me reading an original novel where the characters belong wholly to the author. This is me reading fanfic about characters that are much-beloved and shared among fandom. I participate out of love for these characters. I celebrate that love by writing and reading about them. No, I do not expect them to be killed. Because I hold these characters close to me. They have, literally, helped me get through some shitty times. For a time when I went off my meds, they were my happy pills. And, again, I am being entirely literal. Please do be noting my absolute love and empathy for what Buffy went through in S6.

So, yes, I will glare at you if you try to "surprise" me with one of their deaths. I will likely not read you again. And I will be especially resentful if this comes at the end of a multi-chaptered epic where I have invested a whole hell of a lot of time in it.

/ranty-rant off

Going back to my rational place, I understand that warning for character death can be spoilery. I can understand other readers not wanting to be spoiled. That's fine.

Please, though. Please, give me one good reason why an author cannot make a highlightable warning label so that the spoiler-allergic can avoid the warning and I can avoid the fic. Because I'm really having a damn hard time thinking of one so I can give non-warning authors the benefit of the doubt.

In all honesty, I don't have much problem with this in BtVS fandom. I've run into a few cases of no warnings when I wish there had been. But I think we tend to do pretty good.

In short: My bad place is very unpleasant. I don't like to go there. Please give me the tools I need to keep myself from going there by avoiding fics that might cause it.

I'm not asking for...

I'm not asking authors to read my mind or warn for every little thing. Because, honestly? There are other things in fanfic that could send me into a depressive episode. Hell, general, mind-numbing angst could send me into a depressive episode. I have school issues, so something involving school could be a problem for me.

Guess what? I don't expect you to know that. I don't expect you to warn for that. Because I know that's impossible for you to know.

However, the big things...the things listed above...those aren't as seemingly arbitrary. They can affect a large number of people and...well...they're a little obvious.

So you ask what to warn for? Warn for the biggies. Warn for rape. Warn for self-injury. Warn for incest (in BtVS fandom, I think this is necessary given that, unless you're writing a Dawn/Buffy pairing, the reader has no way of knowing it's gonna be in there until they get to it). Warn for character death (including and especially suicide, which is especially distressing to me. Yes, even the "Spike walks into the sun after Buffy dies" fics upset me).

If you write about Buffy having problems in school, and I get all relate-y and introspective and that sets me off to my bad place...I'm not gonna blame you for it. I won't resent you for it. Because I know that school problems is a pretty damn innocuous thing, and there's no way of knowing that it would affect someone.

If you write about Buffy dying, complete with whopping angst and tears...I will likely stop reading you at all. Because character death is not an innocuous thing. It's inherently distressing. And there's no reason you shouldn't put up a warning for it.

Nobody's gonna get mad at you if you make an attempt. If you overlook or forget something, it's easily corrected. This isn't that hard, guys.

My policy...

My policy as a writer remains fairly consistent: If there are no warnings on a fic, that means there's nothing in there that, to my knowledge, needs to be warned for. If I overlook something, please let me know and I'll add a warning.

I'm liberal with my warnings, because I also see them as a way to attract people by advertising what's in your fic. And I'm not prone to graying them out, either, but I've never run into a case where adding a warning would spoil my fic.

Also, this post by shopfront is pretty damn nifty. Check it out.

*Edit* Also also, I'm kinda loving this post by [info]sarka. Both this post and the one by [info]shopfont discuss mental health issues in-depth. If this is potentially harmful for you, please read with care or pass them by.



(76 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]goldenusagi
2009-06-28 04:24 am UTC (link)
I don't have any issues with depression or anything, but I just don't like character deaths. There's really nothing I can say other than I don't like them. I tend not to read fics with character death warnings. If I do, I sometimes skim to the end (before I get invested) and see if it's something I want to deal with. If I read a character death I wasn't warned for, I usually get sort of turned off, but it's not a huge thing.

The highlight for warnings is a good idea. That way people can choose to remain unspoiled, or can see if there's anything they don't want to read. Though I suppose there could be a problem still if someone who has triggery issues wants to make sure nothing will trigger them, but objects to being spoiled for character deaths.. LOL. Question, though. That's all well and good for LJ, but what about archives where they give you a set of warnings you can pick and choose from? To label it character death or not...? Or would the highlight text work within the text of the story on an archive, placed in an author's note at the top?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 04:35 am UTC (link)
You know, I hadn't even thought about archives. Those seem to highly favor warning, though. I mean...you get a list of warnings to choose from. I suppose some authors may choose to skip that, but...that wouldn't be nice.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]goldenusagi, 2009-06-28 04:40 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-28 04:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]stormwreath, 2009-06-28 01:09 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]rebcake
2009-06-28 04:25 am UTC (link)
I've been keeping out of the warnings chat, because I feel like people are pretty good about it, so no complaints. I agree with you, though. I've only been blindsided once by character death, and I was seriously bummed out for a day (or more). I really thought the story was going to have a happy ending, and I'm still pissed it didn't. Tsk.

However, I don't feel the need for warnings if it's a canon death, because I'm already used to the idea. Buffy dives off a tower? Yup. Spike in a blazing column of light? Okay. Jenny, Joyce, or Tara, taken from us too soon? Well, if you must.

I recently did a retelling of Chosen, wherein Spike closes the Hellmouth in a blaze of glory, and then pops up in Angel's office 10 paragraphs later. It didn't even occur to me to put a character death warning on it, and nobody has complained. Which either means that other people are okay with canon deaths, or that those that aren't were too bummed out to comment on the matter. Of course, it did have a happy ending, so people couldn't have stayed mad for long...

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 04:38 am UTC (link)
Hi. I appreciate the agreement, but I'd like to try to avoid comparing a depressive episode to being "bummed out". It's not even on the same scale.

Canon deaths don't bother me because...they're known quantities. If I'm reading a fic set around The Body, I know that Joyce's death is a possibility. Ditto with Jenny, Tara, or Spike. It's the SURPRISE! deaths that get to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]rebcake, 2009-06-28 08:05 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-28 08:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]ms_scarletibis, 2009-06-28 04:38 am UTC (Expand)

[info]ms_scarletibis
2009-06-28 04:41 am UTC (link)
I think it's easier to put up warnings for fics posted on a forum, because they're made readily available and mandatory. But on LJ? (I mean my own LJ and not comms) I'll admit that sometimes, it just doesn't occur to me to put them up for some reason...Not sure why...but I haven't had any problems with anything I've posted. Or if I did post something problematic, no one ever told me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 04:46 am UTC (link)
I've found that if it doesn't occur to me to warn, that means there's nothing obvious to warn for. If I remember, I'll add a "Warnings: None" label. If I don't, then...well...that's just cause the fic doesn't have anything problematic in it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]elisi
2009-06-28 07:33 am UTC (link)
Can I ask something re the warning for character death? I have a fic (which is still very much a WIP and unposted and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future), and I'm thinking of putting this in the story header (or whatever it's called):

The story chronicles Angel, Spike and Illyria’s attempt at taking down W&H. Can it be done? And if so, what will the price be? (That’s all the warning I’m going to give you, OK? Don’t yell at me later. Also see quote below.)

SPIKE: What do you think all this means for that Shanshu bugaboo? If we make it through this, does one of us get to be a real boy?
ANGEL: Who you kidding? We're not gonna make it through.
‘Not Fade Away’


Would you consider that enough warning if one (or both) of them were to die? My thinking is that throughout they know that they're dealing with something extremely dangerous that's killed all their friends, and they almost take it for granted that they won't survive, so the aspect of character death is sort of built-in to the premise of the story...

What do you think? I'm genuinely curious, because it's something I've wondered about a lot.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 07:45 am UTC (link)
Hmmm...I can only talk from my point of view (and this is a wholly self-centered post). Personally, I've found that, going into a fic, even one that calls itself a "darkfic" or whatnot, there's an expectation that the characters will come out okay...or at least alive. So typically, just being warned for general darkness or danger wouldn't clue me in that someone is actually gonna die (because I tend to think that the fic standard is to not kill main characters...I might have a skewed perspective on this, though).

However, stating "That’s all the warning I’m going to give you, OK? Don’t yell at me later." is something that would clue me in. Because that would be a signal that this fic might be an exception to that expectation, and I might be safer passing it on by.

So, yeah, I'd skip it. Which, I think, means it would be sufficient warning. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]deird1, 2009-06-28 08:22 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-28 08:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elisi, 2009-06-29 06:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 08:02 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elisi, 2009-06-28 08:42 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-28 09:25 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]jamalov29
2009-06-28 08:51 am UTC (link)
I didn't follow at all the threads on this particular subject -
I agree that I want to be warned for character's death, especially if it is about Buffy and Spike in a S/B fiction.I did it with my first writing in a personal way. ;)

But I will resent the hell out of an author for it.
This is me coming from an entirely emotional place.

Nods. I still remember the overwhelming reactions to the ending of a gorgeous A.U fiction by Ripewickedplum ,
Pride and Prejudice.

I was completely crushed and wrote to the author whimpering and crying.

I appreciate too if there's a warning for huge angst in a long fic( I will still read but I know where I'm going )

Edited at 2009-06-28 08:51 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 09:26 pm UTC (link)
*nods* I think I just like to know what the tone of the fic will be before I leap into it. Because sometimes I'm in the mood for something completely fluffy. Other times, I want something darker. Usually, authors are pretty good at indicating what the mood will be in the headers somewhere (either in the summary or just by outright stating "This is fluff" or "This is pretty angsty").

Edited at 2009-06-28 09:27 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mystic_savage
2009-06-28 09:57 am UTC (link)
Thanks for the rant. I don't read a lot of fanfic (more of a time issue than a taste issue) but my response was: hell yeah. Also, as a person with chronic depression who has learned to deal with it mostly just fine (you don't live to your 40s with chronic depression without picking up some nifty little bits of wisdom like "cutting makes it worse") I just wanted to let you know that I like you even more now. Shallow, I know. But there you have it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 09:29 pm UTC (link)
I hate to say it, but yeah. When you have depression, you learn to adapt to it. And cutting always makes things very worse. :)

I appreciate the comment.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]stormwreath
2009-06-28 01:31 pm UTC (link)
I also hate reading fics with main character deaths in them and would definitely want to be warned for them. Which makes it ironic that I've written quite a lot of fics which contain main character deaths, including Buffy, Willow, Kennedy and Faith.

Yes, I always warned for that myself, although sometimes it seemed a bit redundant. I mean, when the fic summary is "Buffy's last battle is over, and she asks Xander to return the Scythe to its guardians before she goes to her final rest. Any similarity to 'Le Morte D'Arthur' is entirely intentional." do I really need to add an actual formal "Warning: main character death" in the header? :-)

(I did anyway, since I think this is too serious to mess around with. But I'm not guaranteeing my warnings might not also contain a certain amount of tongue-in-cheekiness at times.)

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[info]beloved_77
2009-06-28 04:50 pm UTC (link)
I've written quite a lot of fics which contain main character deaths, including Buffy, Willow, Kennedy and Faith.

Funny. If I read a warning that said "Kennedy dies," I'd consider that a happy ending :-P

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]stormwreath, 2009-06-28 09:38 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-28 09:31 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]beloved_77
2009-06-28 04:47 pm UTC (link)
Ah, yes, the surprise character death. I have to say that that bugs me. I know myself well enough to know when I’m in no mood for death. It could be something as innocuous as crazy hormones, but during that period (no pun), one tiny little thing can set me off. So, I avoid those little things, be they a sad movie, fic, etc., in order avoid an unnecessary episode. Warnings on a fic help me in that respect. I’m not asking writers to monitor what I read, just that they give me the tools to do that myself. That doesn't mean that I won't come back to it a week later when I'm on steadier emotional ground, but right then, I avoid it like the plague.

Besides avoiding a sad place, there are readers who just don't want to read an angsty every-body-dies story. So, a warning is good for them, too. I do agree that canonical deaths are fair game. If a fic sets the time period as canon through "The Gift," then it's pretty much a given that Buffy's gonna bite it. Now, if Giles is gonna die, then a warning is necessary. I can understand that an author doesn’t want to give away too much of the plot, but as you said, it won't kill (no pun) any one to put up a highlightable warning. The author doesn’t need to tell us specifically who’s gonna die, just that a character does.

Not just character death can be unsettling. For example, I only read Spuffy fic. Any story that contains Spike/Other that is not canon—and by that, I mean clearly canon, not any loosely implied, ambiguous, or otherwise obscure reference—whether explicit or non-explicit, will most likely not be read by me. For some reason, Buffy/Other doesn't bother as much, but Spike/Other raises my hackles and makes me cringe. I've come across fics that did not warn for the Spike/Other pairing and have been pretty pissed off that the writer didn’t have the courtesy to caution the reader against it. A surprise character death may not completely turn me off an author, but an undisclosed Spike/Other can :-P

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 09:35 pm UTC (link)
Ah, yes, the surprise character death. I have to say that that bugs me. I know myself well enough to know when I’m in no mood for death. It could be something as innocuous as crazy hormones, but during that period (no pun), one tiny little thing can set me off. So, I avoid those little things, be they a sad movie, fic, etc., in order avoid an unnecessary episode. Warnings on a fic help me in that respect. I’m not asking writers to monitor what I read, just that they give me the tools to do that myself. That doesn't mean that I won't come back to it a week later when I'm on steadier emotional ground, but right then, I avoid it like the plague.

I just have to quote this whole part back to you because...word. So much. I will read fics with character death sometimes. That's because I'm able to assess my mood and determine whether I'm in a good place to do so. And, also, because I know the death will be coming because I've been warned for it. That's a benefit to me.

I've come across fics that did not warn for the Spike/Other pairing and have been pretty pissed off that the writer didn’t have the courtesy to caution the reader against it. A surprise character death may not completely turn me off an author, but an undisclosed Spike/Other can :-P

Heh. I think it's pretty common for archives to give that option when labeling. I can understand Spike/Other being more upsetting than Buffy/Other because the whole Spuffy dynamic is that Spike loves Buffy. If he doesn't...well, that's a significant part of his character for a huge part of the show.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]eowyn_315
2009-06-28 05:31 pm UTC (link)
Character deaths don't bother me at all, so I'm curious whether you think this would require a warning - in one of my fics, Spike finds out that Buffy is dying. She doesn't actually die during the fic (it ends with them choosing to be happy for as long as they have), but it is portrayed as the inevitable future, and it's a surprise reveal that she's dying.

I labeled it as "bring tissues" without saying why, so I imagine anyone who has a problem with serious angst would give it a pass. And I've never gotten a complaint that it should have a character death warning (in fact, I've gotten more complaints that "He Will Come For Me" didn't have a happy ending than I have about this fic), but your post made me curious.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 09:39 pm UTC (link)
Gah. I think the surprise reveal there would bother me, to be honest. Although I would be likely to skip a fic that says "bring tissues", because that does imply a death of some sort to me.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]eowyn_315, 2009-06-29 02:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 02:16 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eowyn_315, 2009-06-29 02:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 02:36 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]eowyn_315, 2009-06-29 02:51 am UTC (Expand)

[info]penny_lane_42
2009-06-28 05:36 pm UTC (link)
I haven't ever been depressed myself (though I think I've come pretty close, if that's possible), but I know that I probably will be diagnosed with depression at some point, since it's absolutely rampant in my family, and those of us who haven't been diagnosed yet still have other emotional problems.

All that to say that I completely agree with this statement: Please do be noting my absolute love and empathy for what Buffy went through in S6. I liked Buffy before S6, but I couldn't relate to her. As soon as she came back, though I started absolutely loving her. I think it's safe to say that she wouldn't be my favorite character if she hadn't gone through all that stuff in S6.

I don't know that I've ever really had to warn for anything before. With one of my fics (a let's-explore-Buffy's-mental-state-in-S6 fic), I listed the genre as angst, which I think should have covered things, though there weren't any deaths there.

My two warnings so far?
Warning: Gratuitous use of Keats's "Ode to a Nightingale." He would hate me for the way I've cannibalized his poem. Also, a reference or two to Byron. Clearly, no one should let me anywhere near the Romantic poets.

and

Warnings: Dawn worship. You heard me.

Both are rather silly and ways of accomplishing other things, actually, so maybe I'm just taking the whole thing too lightly.

I did write one fic where Buffy and Spike are literally the only people left on earth which is overrun by demons. No one dies on-screen, though. Which makes me wonder: is it only when you actually see the death that it bothers you? Or if it happens before the fic starts...or maybe even if the characters get a phone call that says "So-and-so [not one of the main characters] is dead," are you okay with that? I'm fascinated by this.

But yeah, I love the highlightable idea. I can only think of one time that a (major) character death come up on me unawares. I can't recall the name of it now, but I found it on BSV, and it was a post-S2 fic where Spike comes back to Sunnydale and finds a depressed Buffy, the two of them are very antagonist but close, they have sex, and launch into a weird relationship, but he's still evil and she's still depressed and at the end she kills herself. It was really, really shocking. But it worked for me; I wouldn't have wanted to be warned about it because then I probably wouldn't have read it, and now I'm glad I did because I thought it was an amazing fic. But I can totally understand why it might bother someone else. So highlightable really works for me.

I will definitely warn (at least in a highlightable way) for character death, should I kill anyone in the future. ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 09:46 pm UTC (link)
I liked Buffy before S6, but I couldn't relate to her. As soon as she came back, though I started absolutely loving her. I think it's safe to say that she wouldn't be my favorite character if she hadn't gone through all that stuff in S6.

Heh. I hated Buffy the first time I watched S6. Actually, watching S6 was very very hard for me. But I hated her because I saw too much of myself in what she was going through, and I had some self-loathing issues at the time. As that passed, I grew to appreciate her arc in S6 and admire her for how she moved past it in S7.

Both are rather silly and ways of accomplishing other things, actually, so maybe I'm just taking the whole thing too lightly.

Oh, no. That's fine. I have silly warnings, too. I do see warnings as an advertisement or a way to set the tone of the fic for the reader. I mean, if you truly have something major in your fic that requires a warning, warn for it. If you don't, then I don't have a problem with anyone adding tongue-in-cheek warnings.

Which makes me wonder: is it only when you actually see the death that it bothers you? Or if it happens before the fic starts...or maybe even if the characters get a phone call that says "So-and-so [not one of the main characters] is dead," are you okay with that?

Reading a fic that starts out with characters who are dead would not bother me. It's the act of reading a fic, getting sucked into it and invested in the story, then having it turn into a deathfic that will be problematic for me. Just having a note in the summary that the fic begins with Character X already dead...well, I haven't started getting invested in the fic, yet, so I'm cool.

it was a post-S2 fic where Spike comes back to Sunnydale and finds a depressed Buffy, the two of them are very antagonist but close, they have sex, and launch into a weird relationship, but he's still evil and she's still depressed and at the end she kills herself.

...yeah, I wouldn't be able to do that fic.

I will definitely warn (at least in a highlightable way) for character death, should I kill anyone in the future. ;)

I appreciate it. :)

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(no subject) - [info]penny_lane_42, 2009-06-28 10:20 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]goldenusagi
2009-06-28 05:56 pm UTC (link)
In this fandom, do you think that, say, Buffy getting vamped needs a character death warning? Or would vamp!Buffy in the summary cover it and be obvious? I'm actually writing a fic which starts when she's missing and has already been vamped, so I'm curious.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 09:48 pm UTC (link)
Well, I do have a bit of an aversion to vamp!Buffy. But I don't think it requires a character death warning. Most vamp!Buffy fics are labeled as being "vamp!Buffy", and the fact that she dies is implicit in it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]goldenusagi, 2009-06-28 10:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 01:31 am UTC (Expand)

[info]gracecourage
2009-06-28 07:31 pm UTC (link)
If I hadn't already friended you, I'd do it just for this post.

::hugs::

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-28 09:48 pm UTC (link)
:)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mabus101
2009-06-28 11:50 pm UTC (link)
Dang. I thought I knew all the "classic" warnings, but it did not occur to me to include warnings about self-injury.

*goes to rejigger the labels on "What Puzzles the Will", which includes that* Hopefully you haven't already stumbled across.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-29 01:33 am UTC (link)
I don't think I've read that one, yet, no. I appreciate you going back to add in the self-injury warning, though. It's fairly common for people who self-injure to be triggered by depictions of self-injury. So thanks. :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]mabus101, 2009-06-29 02:03 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 02:07 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mabus101, 2009-06-29 02:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 02:33 am UTC (Expand)

[info]lavastar
2009-06-29 01:10 am UTC (link)
I completely agree. And...don't have much more to say beyond that, except that I'm just gonna go ahead and give everyone some hugs. Cause hugs are good, yes?

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[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-29 01:33 am UTC (link)
Hugs are awesome! :)

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[info]shopfront
2009-06-29 01:26 am UTC (link)
This is a nifty, clear and concise post. I've added a link back to here from my post as well, because it's a very important point. I've had particular subjects send me into a depressive episode and also at times set off the more anxiety oriented response/flashback to a time when I felt suicidal/inclined to self-harm, and my post was aimed more at talking about the latter because that's where the discussion has been focused. But both are valid reasons to learn about and be aware of the need for warnings.

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[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-29 01:43 am UTC (link)
Thanks for linking. I think I failed to comment on your post, but it did resonate with me very strongly.

I'll admit to being apprehensive about making this post because the conversation has been focused on triggers, and I didn't want to seem like I was trying to redirect attention to my issues. But I've been getting tired of seeing comments that it's still okay to not warn for character death for spoiler reasons, and that is the one subject that is pretty much guaranteed to send me into a depressive episode.

I am glad that mental health issues are finally being discussed in relation to fandom, and I'm especially glad that people are becoming more aware of trauma-related triggers.

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(no subject) - [info]shopfront, 2009-06-29 02:00 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 02:14 am UTC (Expand)

[info]peroxidepirate
2009-06-29 10:10 am UTC (link)
Yep, I completely understand why warning for character death is necessary. Although, myself, I'm more apt to be bothered by a long stretch of angst than anything else -- and so I really appreciate it when dark fics are tagged as such.

I'd also like to add that I don't understand why people think sticking a character death warning on a fic is too spoilery. It doesn't have to give away who dies, when, or how... so you get to keep a whole lot of suspense, if you want. Eh.

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[info]mikeda
2009-06-29 05:11 pm UTC (link)
To the extent that there is any spoileryness, it's probably more in what having a warning says about fics that don't have the warning.

(And, yes, I'm aware that's one of the main reasons for having a warning in the first place.)

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(no subject) - [info]gabrielleabelle, 2009-06-29 06:10 pm UTC (Expand)
here via metafandom
(Anonymous)
2009-06-29 01:48 pm UTC (link)
Anonymous because I'm discussing someone else's mental illness, and revealing my own identity would reveal hers as well.

My fiancee suffers from depression, and she polices her reading and viewing closely to avoid anything that's going to send her to a bad emotional place (there are times when she won't watch anything except childrens' movies and Futurama and will only read comfort fics she's read before, because she can't take any chances of being badly affected by unexpected death/angst/sadness -- to the point of not even being able to get through stuff where the characters are sad but the story ends happily). It extends to canon, too (actually, it's much worse with canon character death and badness, because with fanfic, she can go read a happy fic to counteract the fic where Bad Things happen, but there's generally only one canon) and there have been periods of time where I try my best not to bring certain comics home or leave certain angst-laden books/DVDs lying around the house or play certain songs (generally sad emo music about depression and suicide) in the car.

All of which is a roundabout way of saying: Yes! This! Character death can be more than just unpleasant for some readers even if it's not the same kind of common trauma-related trigger that rape is. And warning for it is greatly appreciated.

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Re: here via metafandom
[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-29 06:15 pm UTC (link)
I can complete relate to what your fiancee has to do as far as avoiding potentially angsty material, even outside of fanfic. I'm glad she has someone who "gets it" to support and assist her.

Given how many precautions I have to take with other forms of media, it's just nice to have a community that tends to warn for this stuff. And it's off-putting to realize that some people are refusing to warn when, really, it's about the simplest thing they can do to help me gauge whether I want to read the fic or not.

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Here via Metafandom
[info]maerhys
2009-06-29 11:23 pm UTC (link)
& I just want to thank you for this post.

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Re: Here via Metafandom
[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-30 01:52 am UTC (link)
Thank you for reading. :)

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via metafandom
[info]infinitlight
2009-06-30 12:54 am UTC (link)
I can't articulate much on this issue, so this is just another "thanks for this post" post.

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Re: via metafandom
[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-30 01:53 am UTC (link)
You're welcome. Thanks for reading it and I appreciate the comment. I'm just so very tired of hearing people say it's still okay to not warn for deathfics. I feel like I'm standing in the corner, clutching the characters and going, "But...but don't kill them!" Meh.

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via metafandom
[info]briarwood
2009-06-30 07:10 am UTC (link)
I do warn for character death, so this isn't me defending why I don't. I just thought I'd answer your question about the highlightable spoilers thing. See, I have a very good reason, if a personal one, why I don't use that convention and wish others wouldn't do it.

Because I have this habit I've tried and failed to break: when I'm reading stuff on a screen, I highlight the text I'm reading. It just makes it easier. So far from hiding spoilers from me, that method is like putting a big blinking light over them to me.

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Re: via metafandom
[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-30 08:08 am UTC (link)
First, thanks for warning for character death. I greatly appreciate it when authors do so.

And, hmmm...I can see how that would present a problem. Perhaps writers adding spoilers to the bottom or a separate page with a link at the beginning would be better. Either that or ROT13 (but that's hopelessly old-school).

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[info]tefnut_
2009-06-30 10:47 am UTC (link)
Here via Metafandom. :)

I need warnings for character death as well -- basically, same reasons as you do. Chronic depression. I hate shutting in, so I try to avoid situations that will provoke that.

I read spoilers for shows. I want to know about the canonical deaths. I also want to know about fanonical ones. I keep the episode of Once More With Feelings handy in case the fanfic I'm reading sends me on the edge of the dark hole. It works for me, but I'd rather stay far away from the hole in the first place.

PS: It seems we have similar interests. Would you mind if I friend you?

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[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-06-30 08:57 pm UTC (link)
Word all around. I load up on spoilers before I watch a series. I like to be prepared for whatever badness happens.

And friending is very welcome. Feel free. :)

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(no subject) - [info]tefnut_, 2009-06-30 09:23 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]quiet000001
2009-07-01 07:59 am UTC (link)
Please, though. Please, give me one good reason why an author cannot make a highlightable warning label so that the spoiler-allergic can avoid the warning and I can avoid the fic. Because I'm really having a damn hard time thinking of one so I can give non-warning authors the benefit of the doubt.

This is the question I keep wanting an answer to. (Not necessarily highlighting specifically, but there are a number of ways to make warnings such that you have to intentionally spoil yourself with them - highlight, cut-tag, link to a post, etc.)

I've seen people saying they don't want to do warnings because they're spoilery, and yet I cannot think of one instance where they've explained how spoiler-protection is adequate for talking about tv shows or other source material, but suddenly not good enough for spoilers of warnings in fic.

(And for the record, character death is a legitimate trigger for me, so i get really annoyed by the people elsewhere saying "character death isn't a trigger, it's just a PREFERENCE.")

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[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-07-01 01:23 pm UTC (link)
Agreed. Especially now that those different methods of hiding warnings are being passed around. Because I do understand that not wanting to be spoiled is a big thing for some people, and I sympathize with their desire to not be warned. But...it's so damn easy to compromise and just have hidden warnings...I don't get it.

(And for the record, character death is a legitimate trigger for me, so i get really annoyed by the people elsewhere saying "character death isn't a trigger, it's just a PREFERENCE.")

I had a feeling there were people for whom character death was an actual trigger. I can easily see how it could be one.

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[info]starbrow
2009-07-06 09:33 pm UTC (link)
Interesting - I also have depression (clinical and going on three or four years now with no end in sight) and I love character death stories, especially ones where the whole story builds up to the death and fucks with my head in the process.

I've often wondered why, but I think it's cathartic - it takes me out of my own thoughts about myself. It's a release of sorts, almost in the same way that self-harm used to be for me (I don't do that anymore either).

Still, though, writing this type of story, I would (and have) absolutely warn for it. If I'm writing a story that involves character death, I probably intend for my readers to be a bit upset at the end and maybe a little shocked or requiring a few tissues - but not triggered, not sent into a depressive episode or harmed in any way that doesn't disappear after they click on to the next story or get up to get a glass of water.

Ultimately, my aim is to uplift rather than depress, using a heroic character death to do so. Pretty much every story I've ever written that involves character death has the character sacrificing themselves for the Good of the Universe, or if their death seems senseless at the time, it has Very Important Ramifications for the future of the world. I don't think I've ever written or would write the type of story where someone is depressed and commits suicide, although there are a few suicides among my stories.

But I can't really fathom why anyone would just not care that they could potentially be harming their readers by not warning. I've seen a lot of "Why should I care about strangers on the internet who don't even send me feedback?" which I find just really cynical and sad - why shouldn't people care about harming other human beings? If someone stepped on a stranger's foot they'd apologise and try to avoid doing so in future surely?

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[info]gabrielleabelle
2009-07-06 11:49 pm UTC (link)
I do sometimes enjoy reading character death stories. But I like to know what I'm getting into so I can steel myself up for it. And there are times when I want to avoid those fics. So warnings...very essential for me.

If I'm writing a story that involves character death, I probably intend for my readers to be a bit upset at the end and maybe a little shocked or requiring a few tissues - but not triggered, not sent into a depressive episode or harmed in any way that doesn't disappear after they click on to the next story or get up to get a glass of water.

Yep. I've written a story with character death and, while I want it to be nice and angsty and affecting, I don't want to actually harm anybody. I warned for it.

But I can't really fathom why anyone would just not care that they could potentially be harming their readers by not warning. I've seen a lot of "Why should I care about strangers on the internet who don't even send me feedback?"

Yeah, I've seen that and it just stuns me. I think I have such a radically different approach to writing and sharing my writing that there's no point even arguing with the people who have that view.

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